Episode 2: An Interview with Me
QUOTE OF THE EPISODE
I believe that there are a lot of entrepreneurs that think they need a million different things, but what they really need is to be in a setting where they can feel a genuine true experience of being fully seen, fully heard, and fully held.
Welcome to episode two of the podcast where Theresa Sullivan from Little Flame Creative interviews me about my story, approach and insights.
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Read the Transcript:
Theresa: All right, Ashley, how does it feel to be a guest on your own podcast? I am really happy to be here and to be getting talk to you about your story, about gentle business, about your business.. I have come to really treasure our relationship. We've been each other's clients. Now we are friends, and I'm really happy to get to talk to you today.
So I think we should start a little bit big picture. I know you've been an entrepreneur for a long time in different seasons of life, in different seasons of business. I, as a copywriter, happen to know that you even had a brief stint as a copywriter. But looking back, How do you kind of see your journey through all of those different experiences and then into this really clear vision of gentle business and gentle business coaching where you are now?
Ashley: I have been. Working for myself for the last 10 years-ish. And have had many iterations of that, I would say most creatives do in some form. And for me, I think it was a lot of exploring what I loved exploring what I was good at, exploring the work that I was really meant to do for me. I feel like all of that evolving had a lot to do with, it was really woven in with healing, and the more that I healed, the more that I evolved and that really had a ripple effect in my work. So, you know, if you take, you know, the work that I was doing at the start to the work that I'm doing now, you can almost see the lineage or legacy almost of, of healing. And what that has led me to through this vision for a more gentle approach to business is sort of the. Impact of that healing work, I believe wholeheartedly in more gentle, kind, loving, soft way of entrepreneurship. But that would've not been possible for me 10 years ago because of the. Amount of pain that I was in, I was not, I did not have the capacity to be loving and kind to myself. And now to sort of be able to model and teach and invite people to a new way, you know, I kind of had to, to sort of walk that journey first myself.
Theresa: It is so interesting to hear the word. Healing because I remember when I first discovered your work a few years ago, it was sort of towards the start of my own business, and I was totally shocked and absolutely riveted to discover that there was someone out there who was talking about business with this type of language and in this type of way, because the language around business that I had al always experienced was much more on the striving, hustling work hard side of things. So the fact that you were using terms like healing in the context of business was so absolutely new to me. And I wonder if it's new to some of your listeners or or new people who kind of find you and become part of your community. And I know you've talked a little bit about what gentle business is on the podcast already, but it makes me wonder kind of how you see the difference between gentle business coaching and what we would think of more as traditional business coaching.
Ashley: I think that, well, you know, sort of my working definition around gentle business is it's a, you know, a way of entrepreneurship that centers the individual's safety and care that centers the entrepreneurs sense of safety and care so that they can and lead out of a place of security and wholeness and. I mean, anyone who's been around me for like literally a second knows that I'm always gonna redirect to those two things, like where is the safety at and where is the level of care at, not only in your internal world, but also in how you've set up your business and how you work, et cetera. And so, that immediately makes things a little bit different because traditional business coaching, which I would argue that a lot of traditional business coaches aren't coaches, I would argue that they are most often consultants or strategists. The biggest way to tell this is, whose is more centered in the conversation? The business coach, then it's not coaching. If it's the client, then it's coaching.
Theresa: Okay. That's kind of a mic drop moment. I wanna make sure I heard it right. Whose expertise is centered in the conversation? If it is the consultants or the the person who has been hired, that's consulting. And if it's the client's experience, then that is coaching.
Ashley: Yes.
Theresa: Wow. That is a pretty profound distinction that I think often gets lost, particularly in online business where the term coach gets used a lot for better or for worse in sort of different contexts.
And it makes me wonder, do you think that there is a way that true coaching like this can exist alongside those kind of traditional, coaching or consulting models that are more rooted in strategy?
Ashley: Yeah. I think too that it's not always so black and white. Uh, you know, like I think that there can be like a blend, right? You know, maybe someone, the majority of their approach is coaching, but maybe they support that with some consulting, which I would say is a lot of what I do. The majority being a redirect to the client's expertise, but then also offering feedback or reflection or intentional strategy. But I think what I lean on the side of is what is your primary way of being with the client? Which is, is that the, is that coaching redirecting to you the client's expertise or is that consulting, redirecting to the consultants or coaches expertise?
Theresa: I think that I have noticed too, that one thing that is super present in your work that is not typically present in kind of traditional business coaching models is this focus on the body, on somatics, on . Body wisdom. And that was another thing that really kind of surprised me when I first found your work because I almost kind of didn't know that these two things could coexist.
That a focus on the body caring for your self, your nervous system could coexist alongside you know, running a business and, and the part of running a business that is so kind of focused on like the brain. And so I think people would be really curious to hear more about why do you believe that body wisdom and the somatic work is really important for entrepreneurs, like, particularly for entrepreneurs in online business?
Ashley: Yeah, I think specifically online business, but you know, it, I would say it's a general cultural norm, is that we really leave our bodies outside of the conversation. Bodies in general are often bypassed or ignored, overridden or forced, and that creates an impact. It has to create an impact on us.
That body is an integral part of who we're, for me, it for me, I think it comes a lot as well from my personal experience of, you know, when I was younger, I had multiple sort of traumatic incidents and it led me to this belief that, well, I just don't have a body then. Like, I'm pure, I'm pure spirit and pure soul. And I am completely like detaching almost from, the body.
And then when I think I came into entrepreneurship, that kind of supported it in a way, at the time that I came in. And it was very much like sleep when you're dead or like, romanticizing this dream and hustle and, and not thinking at all about what the impact or the wisdom that the body has for us.
And so it kind of became like, in a way, the perfect place for me to be. 'cause I was like, oh, I know what it's like. I know how to ignore my body. I know how to detach. I know how to force, I know how to override it. And I almost just tucked myself in to this industry. but when you do that, there almost comes this point of, it reminds me of that, that, quote that I'm sure a lot of us have heard.
This is a paraphrase, but your body will find a way to tell you the things that, you might not be hearing or you might not be able to listen to. Sometimes people start having a really hyperactive nervous system. Sometimes people, um, sleep. You know, really immense levels of intensity in the body. You can't relax, et cetera. And so, That became a, a real thing for me and, and it sort of demanded that I paid attention to what was happening in my body. And for me, that became like a life changing and I would argue a life saving modality to begin to listen deeply, listen to the body.
Theresa: Yeah, I think there are so many of us who aren't even aware of all of the overriding that we do. That we're taught to do,, in so many aspects of life, and particularly in business, when there's a to-do list and you're thinking, this has gotta get done, or this is how it is, or this is a strategy I've learned and we don't even realize, there kind of is another option.
Thinking about, wait, how does this actually feel to me as opposed to just kind of accepting this is something that I need to go do or strive for. And one thing that initially kind of surprised me about your work and definitely was something we even worked on together because I have been your coaching client, is this idea of safety.
You know, you said before you're always coming back to safety and care. If we've been around you for more than one second, those are terms we've heard. I think at first it was kind of hard for me to understand like, safety. What do you mean? Like, of course I'm safe, you know, I'm just like here on my side of the screen, you know, writing words for my clients or, or having calls with people.
Like what do you mean? That, um, it's possible that I don't feel safe, so I'd be so curious to sort of hear you share a little bit. About that concept and maybe also if people are listening to this and even kind of struggling to understand sort of the way, I was like, what do you mean I might not feel safe?
Ashley: So often when Iam referring to safety, I am usually not referring to it in terms of physical safety, and I think that's usually where we go first in our minds. Of course it's safe. Like my life is not in physical danger being on calls or deliverables, et cetera. What I'm really probably speaking to more here is emotional safety.
And there, you know, there are very loaded stories and histories that we bring to our work. , there are things that we've experienced that have not made us feel safe. Those things will naturally interact with our work.
And it was really through my initial work of just before this, of, you know, helping people heal their self-sabotage, the ways that they self protected, which was really a, a conversation around, Um, you know, you don't feel safe and so you're needing to find ways to self protect. So then when it came into a business sense, I would start to, I started to have this realization that I would work with people healing, self sabotage. And then they would go back into their businesses and the way, either the way that their businesses were set up, the, the way that they were marketing the clients they were working with, or the structure that they had was creating this sense of unsafety for them. And so then that would cause these, these ways of self-protecting to just sort of stir back up.
And so then that became a bigger question of like, well, how do you create a business that really feels safe to you so that you can stay in a place of safety and diminish the need for self-protecting? Now, I think that this looks different for everybody and it's, you're really looking at the different nuances and elements of who you are. And your story and your history and how your nervous system works and, what you love and what delights you. And so what's, what's gonna feel safe to one person is not necessarily gonna feel, uh, safe to everyone.
So to give an example of this is I might sit with that question of how could I center safety? In my business for me, and I might answer that and say, okay, well, I think what would feel really safe for me is to do a focus on one-on-one work. You know, building deep or more intimate relational attachments with clients feels really safe for me, so I'm gonna prioritize that or. I feel really safe writing, so I'm not gonna force myself to do a ton of video content right now, uh, but I am going to really utilize writing as a main way of marketing.
See, what happens so often for people is that they hear ways that things should be done, and then they, they force themselves to do it that way. Without considering their sense of safety, and then they wonder why it's really hard for them to execute, or they wonder why they're not seeing results. Well, it all comes back to the idea of like when you adopted that strategy, did you ever ask yourself if it felt safe to you?
Theresa: It's a powerful question. You know, when you adopted that strategy, have you ever thought if it felt safe to you? And it, it makes me think especially about some of the . challenges or even just like features of being an entrepreneur involved in online business where there's this element of like, visibility and potentially vulnerability too, because, you know, many of us are sharing kind of our daily lives online in a way that can be, um, kind of exposed or at the very least, uh, more visible than maybe in other types of business.
And that makes me think about, you know, one thing I know that you've been sharing is your experience navigating autism and trauma healing while running a business. And I remember when you initially shared your autism diagnosis online, you were really clear that it felt like welcome news as opposed to something that people should respond to with like worry or concern.
Which felt like number one, a really affirming perspective, but also sort of a wonderful model of, boundaries and sort of almost like teaching people what type of, , comments or, visibility that you're, you're ready to receive. But I'd love to sort of explore that and see how integrating this insight about autism and even trauma healing has impacted your work and kind of how either you see your work or even see online business culture.
Ashley: Well, I think this goes back to what we were talking about earlier around,beginning to pay attention to the body. When I started to pay attention to the body, I was like, oh, there's a lot happening here. And I began to realize that I was feeling very overwhelmed. Even just in a sensory capacity was very overwhelmed.
How the autism diagnosis happened for me was that I actually worked with a occupational therapist to be assessed. I, you can do this thing where your sensory nervous system, uh, can get an assessment with a occupational therapist and they sort of come back with some type of report around that. And I had been curious about sensory processing because I was curious whether sensory, there were sensory sensitivities that were impacting me on a day-to-day basis.
Ended up coming back and learning that I did not have sensory processing disorder and you know, sort of, it was like you have a sensitive nervous system and likely due to trauma and learned very specific ways that my sensory system, overreacts. So that began this conversation and, you know, that led into autistic curiosities, which then, , ended up getting me,an appointment appoint with a psychiatrist who ended up diagnosing me with it. And like you said, in what I had shared, it was good news for me. It felt exciting. It felt like it gave me language. It felt both healing and also, of course, a little overwhelming but it helped me make sense of a lot of the things that had also been hard for me in online entrepreneurship.
The things that had become hard for me with receiving support or even with learning, et cetera, and also the ways that, that it had really helped me. Like it had helped me I have personally been developing, I, I have this theory right now that I think some of the best coaches are individuals who have autism, because when you're autistic, you have this natural sort of ability, I feel like, in your brain to like notice patterns that other people wouldn't see, and that. Is a huge piece of coaching, uh, especially in the work that I do, noticing the patterns of self-protection or noticing the patterns of, you know, where someone's leaning in terms of like their desires or calling, et cetera. And so, really seeing that too, like as a strength as well as something to be met with care but it helped me make sense of a, of a lot of those different pieces so that I could become more intentional about supporting myself.
I remember one of the, the first things, the first experiences I had of supporting myself more intentionally was I was in a coach training certification and I was having a hard time. Well, I think I'd always had a hard time when I'm in group contexts where I'm not in charge and then two, like there's just a lot of unknowns. So one of the things that I used to get so stressed out about in any group context when I'm like a student or a participant is like when they'll open like when they'll open it up and be like, okay, everyone you can share and I'll, I'll, get so intense about like, oh my gosh, like is there enough time? Like, is everyone gonna get the opportunity to share? Like, oh my gosh, there's still like five people to go. There's only like 10 minutes left. Like, I just, I would get so like, hyper-focused, fixated on that, or I would be like, hypervigilant because I'm like, oh my gosh, what's coming next? I don't know what they're gonna say next. I don't know what they're gonna make me do next, et cetera. Um, and so I advocated a bit more for myself in the coach training.
And, you know, we kind of had a, a setup where they would let me know exactly what was gonna happen in the call, like a few hours before the call. It really helped me to be able to come in and like not have to be, you know, sort of on edge of like, trying to figure all this thing, all this stuff out in my brain. A big thing for me, you know, is I need to feel like I can prepare for something mentally, and it's the reason why it's hard for me when things change or when. When plans cancel, et cetera. And so by them doing that, they really gave me the opportunity to prepare my mind, and that helps me to receive more, to be more ease.
It's just like a small example, but I think if you're someone who is autistic or has ADHD, that's something you really wanna consider when it comes to safety and care, and that needs to be, in my opinion, that needs to be an integral part of determining what those things are.
Theresa: I love that you shared that example both because I think it is a great example of tuning into yourself, figuring out and getting curious about, okay, what about this do I find challenging and what kind of, , requests could I make? Or how could I try to shift this environment so that it can better support me?
But also because, I think it absolutely, , demonstrates some of your superpowers as a coach and facilitator, right? Because if you're the participant in the group thinking, is everyone gonna have enough time to share? Or you know, how is this gonna work? What's coming next?
Sort of the flip side of that then is your skill as someone who leads groups, leads communities, and make sure that sort of other people don't have those types of concerns or that you can kind of assuage them as much as you can. And I love too that before you mentioned your power of noticing, because I think, you know, I've experienced this, other people who have worked with you have experienced this on, on group coaching calls.
People know that, you know when, when you start a sentence with like, can I share something I'm noticing or I'm noticing that it always ends up being this moment that kind of blows everyone's minds and. You know, one thing that I've really admired about you is your ability to create a really safe space for vulnerability and the term safe space is of course, something that we hear like culturally a lot.
We hear the term vulnerability a lot. I think sometimes when you know now people hear the term safe space, it might even kind of feel like . . I don't know. Everyone says that or sort of what does that really mean, but you talk a lot in your work about the power of presence, like what it means for a coach to truly be present with someone. And I have felt that presence so much. As a client, although it's kind of hard to define sort of what that presence really is. So this is where I get to, , turn it on you and say like, okay, so what is that presence like? How do you, how do you really cultivate that sense or that environment your clients?
Ashley: You know what sort of comes to me immediately is almost the concept of attunement that it is. It is a posture of not just like paying attention or it's even beyond, I think, deep listening, and it is a posture of attunement, of paying attention to the experience going on within someone and then responding to that with compassion care, curiosity. And the thing I think that people don't always realize is that, well, one, that that's a skill . But the beautiful part about that is that you can get better at it. It takes practice, but you can get better at it.
I just believe so much that in the world that we live in, there are not a lot of experiences unless we go after them where we feel truly seen, truly heard, and truly held to me. That is the miracle of coaching that we get to create this opportunity, this like closed space for people to have an experience of being truly seen and heard and held. And I believe that there are a lot of entrepreneurs that think they need a million different things. But what they really need is to be in a setting where they can feel a genuine, true experience of being fully seen, fully heard, and fully held.
Theresa: Attunement is such a powerful word as well because there is a way that a coach can be attuned to a client, but of course, so much of what you are advocating for is for people to basically cultivate that practice of attunement with themselves. I think, you know, we see there's so many ways that, , as entrepreneurs it's easy to either intentionally or unintentionally kind of distract ourselves by trying to sort of find the next course that will solve our problem or find the next, consultant or, or someone who's teaching a strategy that is kind of finally going to make the difference for us.
And as you say, you have noticed and have this belief that, often what entrepreneurs really need is not to continue to go outside of themselves and ourselves, but instead, be in a space of presence to, to be seen understood. And I wonder if you kind of have any advice or recommendations for who might not necessarily be seeking out coaching right now, but be it kind of the very beginning stages of, wait, how do I create more attunement to myself and, and with myself?
Are there any kind of techniques or practices that you would recommend for someone who wants to kind of get started tuning in?
Ashley: Yeah, I think what I would say is how can you respond to your internal experience? One of the ways that it, to me feels like one of the more easier places to start is by practicing self validating when you notice yourself having an internal experience. for some people, that might be where you have to start.
I mean, maybe you have to begin to just notice, okay, well I'm overwhelmed right now. It's wild to me, but I, it's like I think that even that can be a profound experience of being like, okay, yeah, like I'm really overwhelmed right now, and noticing that and seeing that versus just Ignoring it or, or just zooming past it. And once you're able to notice that, what I have found is if you can respond to your internal experience with validation.
So if you can say something like, even just saying it as a noticing, like, I see, I see that I'm overwhelmed right now. Or if you could say it like, it makes sense that I'm overwhelmed right now, like I have a lot going on. Or if you could say it in a way of even just like posing a bit of a question at the end, like, I see that I'm overwhelmed right now. It makes sense because I am afraid of being seen, which is, which makes marketing incredibly overwhelming. What could be a way of sharing my work that feels a little less overwhelming?
Theresa: I was just gonna say, you know, hearing you share this It really strikes me. Overwhelm is such an interesting word because we hear it all the time, right? Like,I'm so overwhelmed. I'm overwhelmed with work, I'm overwhelmed 'cause I'm, you know, behind on my laundry. Like overwhelmed is just this word that comes up all the time.
And yet, you know, hearing you share that, it strikes me that's. So often at the same time that we're saying we're overwhelmed is the time where we're like, you know, trying to watch a webinar at the same time that we're catching up on emails or we say, oh my gosh, I'm so overwhelmed. I just like, you know, need to zoom through all these tasks.
And you know, in some ways maybe it's obvious, but sort of in such a profound way that what you're saying is that when we notice that overwhelm. The, the path to attunement is to do the reverse. It's sort of to slow down instead of do the speed up thing.
Ashley: I think when you notice A sensation of overwhelm. That's an invitation to draw close, not to move further away.
Theresa: And we do, we do that so often. Right. Move, move farther away fro overwhelmed from something that feels uncomfortable from something that needs maybe to be explored or to be seen both because that's kind of what we've been taught and because many of us, like we don't have the skills yet to, , stay with that kind of feeling or to explore it but as you said before, those skills are skills that can be, , Taught and learned and cultivated over time.
Ashley: Yeah, I, I mean, I think it's important to even just point out that if you did not have parents who were really great at attuning, emotionally attuning, Of course it's gonna be a harder scale to develop because you didn't have an experience of it. Which is why I think what something like therapy or coaching or many other modalities like that can be so helpful because they, they give you an experience of what it could feel like to be attuned to.
Theresa: That question, or not that question, but sort of that observation you just made too, about like, who are your models? Who's around you to, model this for you or to kind of model the opposite and then to acknowledge the differences or the ways that maybe you haven't seen , some of these skills or, or traits modeled to you.
I think that's something that I've definitely learned as an entrepreneur too. Developing my own sense of noticing of what behaviors and strategies have been modeled to me so far, and then which ones I kind of wanna take with me versus which ones I want to, , . Either sort of leave behind or leave in traditional business culture or kind of adapt to fit me better, which makes me wonder, I'm curious how you, how you have sort of experienced the like reception in the online biz community of this approach.
Like if you've seen a shift when it comes to more gentleness if you feel that this is still kind of, , something that you're advocating for, that you are still needing to move against the tide of the way things have always been done. Sort of how has the reception to this focus on business been?
And where do you see, where do you see it heading?
Ashley: I think that there is a turning, uh, to me it feels like there is a. Yeah, there's a, there's been a tide turning. It doesn't feel, it's a funny thing because it doesn't feel super radical to me to obviously to talk about because it's so embodied to me. There are, there are groups of people who are ready gentle business and so to them, I think it feels like. Almost like a refuge or homecoming to themselves within, , online entrepreneurship. But then there, to others it does seem radical or it might not make sense, or it feels a little to you extreme even.
So it just depends right, where people are on their path when they receive it. I think that that sort of alludes to a greater concept of like whatever your message is, will always be received by those who are ready for it. And when people aren't ready for it, that's okay, but you're meant to sup, support and serve those who are.
And that's what I hope to be, you know, sort of a, a voice and a, a beacon of light for those who are looking for softer and gentler way of being. think that w with some of these, some of the trends we've seen over the last years towards, mental health support and wellness, and. Life is more than work and all of those, I think gentle business really supports a lot of those things.
And so I think that more and more we will continue to see the upswing of that, that, you know, sometimes when I look at my parents' generation so much was steeped in work. I had this funny moment with my dad where I realizing I didn't actually know a lot about his life growing up. And I was like asking him like some questions about it, And he went and he told me every place he lived in, every job he worked. And he said, okay, that's it.
And I feel like. That's such a, an interesting picture or representation of what I have often felt in my parents that work was the centrality of being and what I feel like, ha, the shift has turned and is continuing to turn is that our centrality of being is not in working, but is in so many other things. How do we actually feel? What actually important to us relationally and who are the people that we really want to give the quality of our time and attention to. , and so I think, I think that that's something we're gonna continue to see, uh, see happen.
What makes me excited is that gentle business as a way of doing online business really gives space for people to and experience a way of working. That they could not have in a corporate setting or working for someone else. I mean, when you're working for someone else, your employer is not asking you what makes you feel safe. Or you know, like what would feel like really caring. So there is this space here of like, you get to really create and build and decide what that means for you. And not only can that be super healing, but it also might be a necessity for you that you wouldn't be able to have in any other dynamic. You know, If you are neurodivergent or if you are, , if you are moving through chronic illness, et cetera, like all those things, there's a way of being able to sort of, uh, architect your entrepreneur journey through these lenses, , that can just fit you and hold you and help you and support you in a long term. Way. , so one, I think that for sure, and number two I think is this thing, , in me of like, there is an enlarging space, I believe for and I feel like I stay in this, not only for the first reason, but also because there is such a need for softness and gentleness in the world that we live in. I had been playing around with, you know, I wanted to say or whatever, like in my trailer for the podcast and I, this phrase just like naturally came up for me of like, A refuge from harshness that is so often found in our world. And I think if I could do that, like if I could create some type of from harshness, then that is absolutely something that I wanna do.