Episode 14: Sleep, Entrepreneurship and Safety with Catherine Wright
QUOTE OF THE EPISODE
When I asked people, what do you need to fall asleep at night? They usually say one of three words: secure, safe, or complete. And so I think the more that we can offer ourselves those things during the day, in a way, the more that those things are available to us in the evening.
Welcome to episode twelve of the podcast where I chat with Catherine Wright about all things sleep. This episode is such a beautiful window into our relationship with sleep, how to support ourselves within it and meeting ourselves with compassion when it comes to rest.
Catherine is a lifelong lover of sleep. Starting in early childhood, she discovered sleep was a stabilizing force in her life, something to protect to keep her grounded and happy. Just over a decade ago, after becoming a Mom and bumping up against the realities of sleep deprivation, she evolved her practice as a birth doula and shiatsu therapist into a sleep coaching practice – supporting other new families with little ones, around sleep.
Her practice has since blossomed again, and she now also works with school aged kids, teens and adults with a special focus on midlife women. Catherine understands sleep as something we nurture from the moment we wake until the moment we turn out our lights.
For her, cultivating a great sleep practice is about bringing awareness to the elements of healthy sleep, and tending to them as we go about our day. She believes when we heal our sleep we inevitably heal other areas of our lives too. This has been Catherine’s experience, as she too has navigated bouts of insomnia and burnout, and now taps into the pleasure of sleep and rest as her superpowers, while helping others do the same.
Catherine’s soulful approach to sleep is evidence based and integrates cognitive behavioural therapy for insomnia, neuroscience, sleep science, and mindset work. She is a certified sleep coach and educator, and founder of Recoop. www.recoop.care
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Read the Transcript:
Welcome to episode 14 of the Gentle Business Sessions. A podcast hosted by me, Ashley Beaudin and powered by Marvelous and WillowSpace. It is so good to have you here. And this week's episode, I have a beautiful conversation. With Catherine around sleep. I really wanted to have Catherine on the show to talk about sleep. Because it's such an important aspect of being a human. And it is something that really comes up in the entrepreneurship world. Sleep often can get sacrificed. In the name of business and the name of ideas. In the name of overworking. And so we have a chat through many layers of that. And I am so excited for you to hear it. So here we go.
Ashley: Hi, Catherine, I'm so excited to have you on the Gentle Business Sessions. Thanks so much for being here with us.
Catherine: Hi, Ashley. Thanks for having me.
Ashley: When I decided to do this podcast, I really, you were one of the people that I instantly thought of because this topic of sleep is such an important topic, obviously for all humans, but something that I see come up a lot with entrepreneurs.
Catherine: Yeah, definitely. And being an entrepreneur myself and a sleep coach, um, yeah, the sleep comes up a lot. It's, um, it's a really big piece of around keeping ourself resourced to be able to do what we do. And I think because what we do is so full on and taps into every aspect of our life. There's no doubt that, um, it's going to also impact the way that we sleep, right? So yeah, it's, it's, it's a big topic for us.
Ashley: I would love, cause I, I feel like a lot of people who listen to this podcast in my audience have not come across your work before. So I'd love for you to share a little bit about who you are, what you do, how you got into this.
Catherine: So I, I actually started off as like a birth doula, um, working with families long before I became a mom.And then when I became a mom myself about 12 years ago, I was, I was mostly anxious about, uh, the sleep piece because I have ever since I was a kid been very protective of my sleep. I've really, really found that it's like the most. It's the most grounding thing for me. Um, I hated sleepovers as a kid. I hated the idea of not getting enough sleep.
And then, um, embarking on parenthood, I was terrified about losing control over my sleep. Um, as a result, I like, I did tons of studying and geeked out on infant sleep, and how was I going to do this? And my journey was pretty smooth, and then I ended up just kind of falling into a practice, uh, my own private practice where I was supporting other families around sleep with their kids, babies, infants, doing psychoeducation, running workshops, and, uh, and then I actually started bumping up with, against my own challenges with some insomnia and my own sleep, sleep issues not related to my, my child.
And further studied cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia and learned more about adult sleep. And since then, have also added that to my practice. So I work with, I work with families with babies, I work with teens, I work with adults. Sleep has always been like a really, really big part of my life since forever.
Ashley: Yeah, it sounds like it's been a A high value for you.
Catherine: Definitely. Definitely. And I also, having experienced my own challenges with sleep understand what it is like to go through periods of really terrible sleep and insomnia and how, you know, dysregulating that can be.
Ashley: Mm hmm. Yes. It can be a really frustrating, can be a really frustrating and sometimes isolating feeling when you're not getting good sleep and maybe you don't know why, or it just feels hard, etc.
Catherine: Yeah, and I think, and I think too sometimes it can feel like it'll never change. You know, like there's no hope people get pretty Including myself when I've gone through periods like that where you feel like oh, this is just who I am This is gonna be me forever, you know
Ashley: Yeah, it makes me think too of well and I was saying to Kevin before we recorded that I've recently had great progress in my sleep and It's been making me laugh recently because I always said for the longest time.
Oh, I'm such a night owl. Like I You know, I love staying up late. I love working late and since my sleep has improved There seems to be a natural rhythm of me getting tired at like 1030 And I'm like, this isn't what I've been telling myself All these years. Uh, and so how we get, how we can be so quick to like claim this as just like the way it is or the way we are.
Catherine: Yeah, absolutely. I think that we can get locked into ideas about ourselves as sleepers that we really, uh, that limit, you know, and then there are people who are naturally later sleepers and for them to know that that's okay. It can be really freeing. I was speaking with someone a couple of weeks ago who is a night owl, um, and she really thrives actually sleeping 12 o'clock am. until 8 a. m., but she always thought she was a bad person because she was told that she was, you know, this isn't an appropriate sleep time. Um, but once she learned that this was actually her natural rhythm and could embrace it, she was like, her whole life changed. She was so happy and was actually getting really great quality sleep.
Ashley: It's amazing how we can, we can attach, I guess, a sense of morality into sleep.
Catherine: Or just societal expectations around what a good sleeper looks like.
Ashley: You sort of touched on this already, but I'd love to give. Give a little bit of space for it to breathe around. We all know that sleep is important. We all have that Understanding, but why is it so important?
Catherine: Yeah, I think we are sort of as a culture starting to catch on to the fact that it is really important I think those days of like, you know, I'll sleep when I'm dead are kind of like that's a bit passé now Um, you know, research shows that basically every aspect of our entire life changes when we're well rested.
It's our emotional selves, it's our physical selves, and it's our spiritual selves that are all. Lifted up when we are getting enough sleep. So nervous system regulation, we are able to regulate, uh, cortisol, stress hormones, all of that. When we are well rested, we're less prone to impulsive behavior, like just snapping at someone or succumbing to a craving, like grabbing a bag of chips.
When we said we didn't want to, you know what I mean? Like. All of those things. So the way that we eat, the way that we, we relate to other people, um, we're just generally more kind to ourselves and have a lighter and more positive perspective on life. Like a, a glass half full kind of perspective when we're well rested and this impacts everything.
Our relationships with other people, ourselves, our work, creativity, joy levels. And then we know that there's also like chronic long term sleep. Like, for those who have chronic long term sleep issues, of course, there's often a struggle with anxiety or depression and that kind of is a bi-directional relationship with sleep, right?
So, people with anxiety and depression often, but not always have sleep problems and then that can feed the anxiety and depression. So, there's often looking at like that as a, as a whole, it's a kind of a puzzle, but I think for me, to be honest, um, Um, I am really interested in the, in the research and studies around cognitive health.
I have two parents who are struggling with, um, cognitive impairment, they're both in their late seventies and the studies that I read around sleep being the number one factor in reducing risk of Alzheimer's is really compelling for me. It's one of the reasons I continue to do this work. It's one of the reasons why I'm so invested in sleep is because I think we're just seeing how connected this is and then there's heart health and cancer and all of that and just general immunity. So basically there's nothing. Sleep doesn't help.
Ashley: Yeah. It helps everything for sure.
Catherine: It helps everything, but I hope that gives you like kind of a bit. Yeah, like, it's good to remember, right, like, that really, like, any, even moving the dial, like, a micromillimeter on your sleep helps us, right, it supports all of these things. So, rather than thinking about it as a scary thing, we can think about, like, wow, if I just improve my sleep a little bit, I'm helping myself in all of these aspects of my life.
Ashley: Yeah, I think that too shows just how even like the smallest improvement can have such a deep impact on so much of our life.
Catherine: It's not about perfection at all. It's not about, yeah, we're going to nail this and have eight hours of perfect sleep every night for the rest of my life. Um, there's, there's none of that. It's just about getting into how you can support. Even a little bit better sleep. Yeah, a few nights a week. Yeah, it makes a big difference for sure.
Ashley: One of the things that I was drawn to you about your work when I first discovered it was And you can feel free to correct me if I'm getting it wrong, was the sentiment that our sleep is so related to other ways that we live, that there's information in sleep that sort of lives like a window and this posture of like listening to the information that is present in our sleeping patterns.Is there anything that you either want to say to that or adjust in that?
Catherine: My God, you said that more beautifully than I could. Um, uh, wow. Okay. Yes. To all of that, um, there's nothing I would correct to what you said. I think that that is exactly how I think about sleep. I look about and I try to communicate to other people about their sleep.
People get frustrated when they're not sleeping well. They can feel hopelessness and despair and frustration and all of those things. And so I, I try to think about how we can look at like sleep is like an indicator. It's like a barometer and sometimes it can just show us what is out of balance in our lives.
So like thinking about tending to our sleep, it does require change, not just around like our pajamas and our sheets and what kind of mattress we're sleeping on, but like, actually what's happening in our lives because. The way that we take care of our sleep really does start from like what happens from the moment we wake up in the morning, right?
It's like all of these pieces are, are integral to how we sleep at night. And so sometimes when sleep is at a whack, it's like, wow, this opportunity to kind of step back and say like, Ooh, what's going on? Am I not creating enough space for reflection or stillness in my life? Maybe I'm not moving enough. Um, are my sleep patterns all over the place?
And why is that? What's going on? Um, like a lot of the, the people that I speak to, they're kind of on like the treadmill of life and they, they just, they're just like going, going, going, going. And then their sleep kind of rebels and it's like, knock, knock, knock. Hey, listen to me, what's going on? And so our subconscious minds are really smart.
If there's something we're avoiding or we're not looking at or we're not giving space to process, it can show up in our sleep. Um, that can look like issues falling asleep. It can look like issues staying asleep. Um, and so it's just kind of like, it can kind of be like a bit of a, like, oh, not so cheesy, but wake up call.
Ashley: I know that, uh, this wasn't in my question, so I'm kind of throwing you here, but the, that term, there has been that very popularized term around like sleep procrastination or revenge. No, that's not it. It's called, I think the term is sleep procrastination revenge. Oh yeah. What do you think of that in light of what you just said?
Catherine: I think that, oh, it's, it's, so the topic sleep procrastination revenge is basically what that is referring to is sort of, and I think it was, it came out of, I want to say it was like a Chinese term first, but like basically the feeling that like you're working and going so hard all day. You don't have any time for yourself.
So going to bed feels like a punishment because we all need time in our days to experience relaxation, joy, puttering, creativity, basically just doing nothing. Um, listening to music, not being of purpose, right? So if we're not getting that in our day, sometimes we push off sleep, even though we're exhausted in order to get a chunk of time in our day where we can just be relaxed.
That could look different for any person. So that term sleep procrastination, revenge is, I think of it as kind of like, um, it can wreak havoc on our sleep, but I think of it as sort of a symptom of patriarchy and capitalism. If I'm going to go there. It is really like a lot of us have, you know, our lives that are so full and we, we, we, we have to really give her all day and then at the end of the day, we want some time to relax, even though it might be time for sleep. And so I think there's a bit of a tension there in terms of, yeah, I need to go to bed at 10 o'clock, but I also need some time for myself. And that can be a big piece for a lot of people.
Ashley: Yeah, I like that. I like that we're talking about that for a second because I think If that is something that is going on for people seeing that as such a beautiful and like worthy need for space or quiet or play or to just have a space to do nothing versus even the term that procrastination revenge feels so like dark and heavy.
Catherine: And it's a bit punitive yeah for sure and I mean like listen Ashley like the way I talk to people but if you're at that point where you feel like you can't go to sleep when you're tired because you haven't had enough time during the day. I mean, and this is a privilege. I really challenge people around, okay, is there a way that you can create more space during your day? To recover some time for yourself. It could be a walk around the block at lunch. It could be blocking off time to do, you know, like chat with a friend or do something else so that it doesn't all line up to like the last minute before you're supposed to go to bed.
So I think it, and it is, it is so much, it's such a cultural thing because we are so many of us, I would say, especially. Women, I don't know, I think, our value is attached to how productive we are. And so stopping, slowing down, taking breaks, going for walks, blocking time out of our schedules to just rest and relax and do whatever we want can feel really uncomfortable for some people.
Ashley: Yeah, I totally agree with that. I think I really see that in a lot of my, the work I do with clients there, there's a, there's sort of a, a grouping of clients I have there would probably self describe them as over workers. And really struggle to create space, which is often why they come to me because they're looking for relief or they're looking for a way of doing business that is not so exhausting or overwhelming all the time and I think that sleep and rest play an interesting part into that conversation
Catherine: Oh my god, you would know better than anyone because it it is about really Listening to ourselves and what we need. And that is hard work when the demands of a business or being self employed, you know, it's really difficult to sometimes tap in and be like, wow, I actually need to rest right now or take a break or step away or whatever. And, and create some of those like really gentle, loving boundaries for ourselves too, so that we can keep doing what we want to do, right. It's about being like, this is about like. Avoiding burnout and being able to do what we love in a sustainable way.
Ashley: Yeah, that's what we share. That's the work we share. Um, so let's say, let's get into it a little bit. Let's say that someone is wanting to heal or change their relationship with sleep, but they don't know where to start.What kind of would be the starting point that you would give them?
Catherine: Number 1, I think it's like important to normalize that, like, most people experience a time in their lives where their sleep takes a hit. It could be due to trauma, it could be to, due to like a really stressful time in life, a breakup, an illness, a move, right? Sometimes what happens is we develop coping strategies just to get any sleep, right? And then those coping strategies kind of perpetuate, and then the stressor's gone, the original stressor, stressor's gone, but we're kind of like in this pattern of. And I'd like not so great sleep because we're using these coping strategies that aren't really serving us, right?
And so I think part of healing sleep. It requires kind of coming back to like what are the elements of healthy sleep? It could look like developing a more consistent ritual around what time am I waking up in the morning? What time am I going to bed? Figuring out what kind of sleeper we are. So figuring out what is your ideal sleep wake window.
Most people need somewhere between seven to nine hours sleep. So figuring out what that looks like for every individual, um, ensuring that we're getting enough, like. Full spectrum light during the day, moving our bodies enough, eating nourishing meals at regular times during the day, it might mean looking at our relationship with technology and screens, it might look like you know, how am I using my bed and my bedroom, am I working in my bed, am I working, am I, am I confusing my, my brain and my body around what my bed and bedroom mean in terms of it being a sleep space?
So for everybody, it's going to look a little bit different. But I do think it is like a bit of an act of, of compassion and self care. It's like bringing curiosity to, okay, what I'm doing is not working. What are those elements of sleep that I need to look at in order to kind of recalibrate and change, and then slowly starting to make those changes.
I'm always looking at kind of like, there's sort of seven things that I'm looking at in terms of like. Exposure to light and dark, movement, rest, you know, sleep timing, all of those things, a relationship with our bed in our bedrooms, and then mindset is probably the biggest piece. So, what do we believe about ourselves as sleepers?
What are the thoughts that we have if we're struggling to fall asleep and waking up at night and struggling to fall back asleep? Because this is the piece that sometimes can cement a pattern with crappy sleep. It's the thoughts that we're having and we get into this kind of loop where we're, uh, really down on ourselves, like, I'm stressing out a lot and it has a physiological impact.
That can kind of, uh, ramp up our stress cycle. Um, so I spend a lot of time talking to people about what are the thoughts? What, what's happening in your head? Because sometimes that's a really important piece. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I don't know if you've had that experience, but we can get pretty heady about sleep.
Ashley: I totally think that that's true. I think that, yeah, it can be so complicated, the relationship and experiences that we have, and like, you're sort of saying like, there can be multiple streams of support or inquiry, and it might be like one, one stream or inquiry is going to really support someone over the other, uh, and kind of like looking at all of those different pieces.
Catherine: Totally. Yes, I would say that's absolutely true. There are certain people that really need to lean into, um, one, one part of the sleep puzzle. And then some people really need to focus on something totally different.
Ashley: That's what I think too. I appreciate the way that you approach it because it's not as prescriptive. And it's more about compassion and having almost like a lens of curiosity. The question keeps popping into my head, which I, which I'll just say it because it keeps popping into my head, but the question is, if we ask ourselves, if sleep was a person, what is sleep, what is my sleep trying to let me know or, or trying to, there could be a lot of beauty in that answer for folks.
Catherine: Oh my gosh, yes, I love that. I, I, one of the first workshops I ever ran, I asked that question at the very beginning and people were like, there was like always this like dead silence after. I was like, Oh, I guess I shouldn't be asking those questions, but maybe I should. I don't know, because people were like, I said, no, I said, if your sleep was going to tell you one thing, what would it be?
Um, and that can go pretty deep for some people, or it can be really confusing for some people because they're just like, I just want to sleep. You know what I mean? I'm like, I don't care. I just want to sleep. Um, I don't want to look beneath the surface. I don't want to know like whatever, but, but if you actually spend some time with it, it's amazing what people come up with.
They usually have something to say in terms of when they start making the connections and they're like, well, actually my sleep would say, you know, I need to slow down or I need to like, you know, people come up with all kinds of things. Cause we, we are, we do know, we do know that's, um, sometimes we just have trouble slowing down enough to ask the questions, but that's, I love that.
Ashley: I think two probably depends like a bit on the audience. So they're like, are so yeah, some audiences that would like eat that question up like mine. And some would be like, I need a practical solution instantly.
Catherine: I would say that is the majority, like, so many people, they know all of the sleep hygiene, like, Google sleep, it's the same list of seven things, right? Go to bed at the same time, uh, have a dark sleeping environment. Who doesn't know that? You know, like, Are you, are you sleeping under a strobe light? I hope not. Like we basically know what we should be doing. And I put should in like, you know, quotation marks, but sleep is more complex than just those seven sleep hygiene rules, right?
Like it, it does require sometimes a little bit more. I would, I would say, especially as we approach midlife where our sleep is more challenged because our sleep architecture is changing, we don't get as much deep sleep, you know, for people with neurodivergence or whatever, it's, it's going to be more complex.
And so it does require a little bit more than just like go to bed at the same time, wake up at the same time and you know, exercise.
Ashley: Right. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Most things are run a little bit deeper than, than that. Something that I wanted, specific that I wanted to talk about with, with those who listen to this podcast is that there tends to be a, sometimes we can be really good at turning, like taking physical rest, but we can struggle to have mental rest.
So our, our bodies are resting, but our brain is like continuing to go, go, go. And I, I think that that, you know, is obviously an element of being an entrepreneur and struggling to fully let go or like fully trust, fully rest. I'm curious if you have any perspective on that from, um, the perspective of your work.
Catherine: Yeah, I mean, I'd almost turn the question back on you, but I'm wondering who has had experience with sleeping as an entrepreneur that I think of it as like the whirly mind, right? The mind that can't shut off because we have so many things that are vying for our attention. So many things that we have to do.
I mean, there are tools that we can use. I would say to be honest, most of them, I, I would use. I would suggest using during the day, um, rather than at night, you know, um, there are tools that we can use at night, but I do find a lot of people find it helpful to kind of have a bit of a, like a, it's about boundaries, right?
So yeah, I've had a crazy work day. There's stuff that is unfinished. I don't know the answer yet, and I'm definitely going to have to attend to that tomorrow. But I'm giving myself a curfew right now where it's like at nine o'clock or whatever time it is that you, where I'm just, I'm just disengaging.
I love to use the mantra, I am enough and I've done enough for the day and anything else that needs me can wait until tomorrow. Now is my chance. And nourish my brain and body and be at rest. And so, and being intentional about creating a separation between the sort of doing aspect of ourselves and our sleeping selves, because we do need a transition in our day between doing and sleeping, there has to be kind of a being in there somewhere where, I don't know, you're watching Netflix or taking a bath or having a chatting with a friend, but there, there needs to be some transition.
And so I think that can be really helpful for that whirly mind, is to just give it a container. Um, some people really like just getting set up for the next day. Gives them a really, a nice sense of control. Where it's like, Okay, it's nine o'clock. I'm making that transition into my being self. So I'm going to just make sure that everything I need to do tomorrow is written down or I have my schedule for my day. So I leave it here. It's on a piece of paper. It's in my calendar. I don't have to think about it now. I can, I can leave it and that can create a bit of a container too.
So, it is about boundaries and separating that piece out. Um, because our brains, like, they love to wake us up and be like, Hey, hey, we go to bed, we get into bed and turn out the lights and then it's, everything's quiet and our brains are like, Hey, hey, it's me, what's up?
Yeah. How are you? What do you want to do? What do you want to talk about? I think that's really common. When the, when the brain, when the mind is kind of like overactive and we don't give ourselves any space or time and then we turn out the lights and it's quiet and our brains get really charged up because they're trying to, we're trying to catch up with ourselves almost.
Ashley: Yeah. I really love that suggestion around transition. I think that that could be a helpful tool.
Catherine: Yeah. And I mean, other people, you know, they need to utilize stuff in the middle of the night if their brains are busy and they're up and they're awake and they can't turn off. And that is so personal in terms of what works. Um, it can be, you know, a guided sleep meditation, getting out of bed, doing a body scan.
There are all kinds of things that we can use, um, tools that we can use to help ourselves kind of move back into sleep. But I do find that people who have some kind of a, um, mindfulness practice during the day, they tend to do a lot better with that. I think it's just like exercising that muscle of, uh, unhooking from thoughts.
Ashley: Something that came up for me a little bit too is around, which this is inspired from some of your work as well, is if someone is working a lot in the bedroom, And then they're going to sleep and then they're having a lot of like whirling thoughts around business that, that, that those two things could be connected.
Catherine: Totally. One of the pillars of, um, cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia, sorry to use that long, weird word, but it is about like, basically creating a space. Because we're such creatures of habit, if we go into bed and our bed is reserved for sleep only, our bodies know what to do when we get into bed.
But if we're working in bed, if we're arguing with our partner in bed, if we are stressing out in bed, or spending long periods of being awake in bed, um, it's sort of like it dilutes that association for us. So that when we get into bed, we can be stressed or whatever, like it, so yeah, it's, yeah, I think that's a really good point, Ashley, like using the bed in the bedroom, ideally, I mean, it's hard if you're in a small Toronto condo. So many of my clients are in like, like one bedrooms or, you know, even bachelors.
But ideally the bed itself is a place for sleep only, um, taking work out of that, out of that space and not working in bed and not, um, being stressed in bed at all can really, really help people who are struggling with falling asleep and staying asleep.
Ashley: Something I think too, that I would just add to the, the conversation is, so much of the work that I do is around bringing people back to that question of safety. And so if your mind is really going when you're about the business, at times when you're trying to rest or sleep, sitting with that question, what what feels safe about keeping the mind going and how is that helping you?
Catherine: I’m going to flip this around to you. So I think this is your superpower and how you support people the most. You help people identify when they're in a place of not feeling safe or secure. Right? Like when they're, when they're in their working day. There's a huge piece here around, it's about, it's about stopping. It's about slowing down. It's about listening to our bodies and feeling. What do I feel like when I'm becoming stressed or dysregulated? What is happening in my body and listening to that and then knowing how to tune and what, what do I need?
Do I need to call someone? Do I need to go for a walk? Do I need to eat something? Do I need to have a glass of water? Really, really prioritizing our own I guess nervous system, like, uh, for lack of a better word, like our own wellbeing, our own sense of security and safety, not just at bedtime.
And that is a big piece. Like people usually say, like when I asked them, what do you need to fall asleep at night? They usually say. Secure, safe, or complete. Those are the three words. And so I think the more that we can offer ourselves those things during the day, in a way, the more that those things are available to us in the evening.
Sleep is a daily practice. Um, so if we can tend to those feelings of safety, security, and, um, whether it's like having a wholesome meal or just like knowing when we're tapped out and taking a break, all of those things really, really support the way that we dive into sleep and at night when our bodies are ready and the way that we stay in the sleep cycles throughout the night and have a really good quality sleep. It's about what we're doing during the day.
Ashley: Yeah, I think that raises a really interesting question around if I don't feel safe when I go to sleep. Do I feel safe during the day? Like, is that a priority? Or is that a felt sensation in my day, but I'm just so distracted by being so busy, that I'm not aware that I don't feel safe.
Catherine: Yes, yes, yes. I think you just nailed it. I think that so many people's experience is like, they're so busy during the day. I'm not totally feeling connected with themselves, not really feeling a felt sense of safety and security because they're just really busy because that's what life demands.
And then at night. It's like night falls, and it's quiet, and it's still, and we need to sleep, and we don't feel safe. Because we, I think you just, wow, wow, I feel like you just tapped on something really big here.
Ashley: This is a moment.
Catherine: This is a moment. This is a, this is a moment for me, actually.
I think you really, really, really, really understand that.
Ashley: That’ll be such a beautiful point to take away for people to really reflect on and like, really think, literally think about like, what, what are the places of safety for me and, and having a really honest, maybe conversation with themselves about how they feel in their life and responding to that and saying, How could I add more safety? How could I add more?
Catherine: What do I need to ask for? What permission do I need? What, what, what, what, what additional support do I need? Because I think that's a big piece to it. It's just feeling worthy enough to ask for like different supports. Like I need someone to help me with that.
So that I can feel more safe or more rested or whatever. And I, and permission to do that, I think is huge. Huge part of breaking down this. Um. Paradigm of, of overwork and busy and overproduction. It really is about like slowing down and, and we all have to ask for more.
Ashley: This is just an aside, but I think that there would be an interesting parallel because, um, with, with business, what I find is that.
A lot of individuals don't feel safe in their businesses, and usually that's tied to some type of vulnerability, like I'm scared of being seen, I'm scared that I won't make enough money, I'm scared that I'll get rejected orI'll be criticized. And then to sort of contrast that with the vulnerability of sleep, of like, this is a vulnerability I have to face.
Like I have to interact with in some way, it would be, that would be an interesting, like little study to me around how those two things overlap.
Catherine: Yeah, I love hearing the way that you talk about, um, I mean, being a gentle business, um, and that being your, your mission, the way that you just talk about business being like slow and not slow, but just that attunement to like prioritizing our own needs first.
I suspect, and I'm thinking about a couple of clients that I saw yesterday and I'll, I'll leave you with this. Yes. They are so passionate about their work. It's amazing and beautiful and inspiring.
They are so driven and type a personalities and like, really smart people, but sometimes our brains, they're like the worst things when it comes to sleep because like we can think the way out of everything in our lives and make it and make our brains are our biggest asset. But really, when it comes to sleep and rest, it is about surrender.
It is really about letting go and that can be a really. It's a new and challenging skill for people who are built for something else. Right. Right. And so, um, it's not bad or good. It's just what it is. Um, and sometimes people who are like really, really amazing at using their brains and being driven and willpower and all of that, it like, doesn't help with sleep.
Yeah. Sleep is like kind of telling us to do something totally different. And then they, and they really struggle. And I think a lot of entrepreneurs will get, I hope your listeners connect with that piece. I think they will. Yeah, I think they will. Um, oh my gosh. Well, I feel like we, we touched on some good points.
I feel like we both had some like OMG moments. Yeah, for sure. Is there anything that you, that you would like to share that you didn't get to say or anything like that? Or do you feel like we covered it?
Catherine: I feel like we covered it, like, I feel like I got to say everything that I wanted to, I don't know, I feel like we covered a lot of ground. I think the biggest piece for me, like for thinking about your listeners and people who are entrepreneurs is, I'm going to sound like a broken record, but we can't underestimate how important sleep is to, um, creativity, functioning, cognitive power, all of those things I think are so important.
So, there's times in our days when we feel like, I can't rest, I can't sleep, I can't take a walk, I can't whatever, because our businesses are so pressing, but I try to flip the script and say actually the opposite. Like, if I I'm feeling a need for a break or a meal or a, whatever it might be to go to bed, that that is actually the thing that my business needs the most or that I need the most, like I'm trying to like, like it's a rewiring, right?
It's flipping it around. Not that more is better, but that sometimes less is actually better because we can do a lot. In a short period of time when our, when our brains are working really well because we're well rested. So that's it.
Ashley: Love that. Love that. It's a good place to end on it. Thanks so much, Catherine, for being here and sharing all that you know and have insight on.
Thanks for having me.
I want to jump in here and share a couple of things. That are coming that I'm excited about. And then I just want you to know about one of them is that. There is an event coming an in-person event. May 3rd to fifth. And marketing it completely through. Private invitation to start. And so if you're interested in getting a private invite, feel free to send me a DM on Instagram and. I'd love to send one your way.
Number two is that I have. Release a new service guide, which you can download via the link in my bio. I have expanded my services. To offer a little bit more extra points of support. And so if you want to check those out, you can do so.
And then lastly, I just wanted to share about. One of the beautiful, beautiful partners of this podcast. Talking a little bit today about Willow space. And my last
interview podcast. I spoke about. How intuitive and simple marvelous. Really is to use. And I want to give really the same point today for Willow space. There's a lot in life. And there's a lot in business. That is extraordinarily complicated. There's a lot in life. There's a lot in business. That is incredibly overwhelming.
And that's why I think it can be such a gift when we can find. Softwares that are simple to use that are easy, that are beautiful. They become like agents of grounding in our work. That even when there are things that we can't figure out, we can come back to these systems that we know to be true. Truly simple, truly easy.
And it can kind of give really this comfort and grounding for us. And so that is Willow space when it comes to client management. So if you haven't checked it out, You can use the code gentle for $20 off, and I'd love to hear your experience of using that software. And so on that note and with all of these announcements, I hope. That today feels like a warm hug, a deep breath. Whatever it is that you need the most. And I hope that you give, feel a, such a safety and care. Within yourself within your business, within your body and the, you might always remember. To be gentle with you.