Episode 05: Creating Human First Client Experiences with Danielle Joseph of Willowspace
QUOTE OF THE EPISODE
When it comes to a really streamlined, solid client experience, what I've focused on is balancing that structure and then knowing when to pull back and be more human in the experience as well.
Welcome to episode five of the podcast where I chat with Danielle Joseph, the founder of Willowspace, about creating incredible, beautiful and human-first client experiences. Our conversation is richly thought-provoking around why we do the things we do.
Listen on iTunes or Spotify or below. If you love what you hear, press subscribe or leave me a review. I love hearing your thoughts!
Important Integration Steps from Episode:
Reflect on the softwares you use. Do they offer overwhelm or relief?
Make a list of what is important for you in how you work within your client experiences and ways you can meet your client with deep care and support.
Notice where you’ve subscribed to standardized ways of doing things. Do you want to do things that way?
Important Links from Episode:
DM me + tell me what you think about the episode.
Sign up for the waitlist for Coming Home.
Check out Willowspace using the code GENTLE for $20 off!
Read the Transcript:
Ashley: Welcome to episode five of the Gentle Business Sessions. I am your host, Ashley Beaudin. And I am so glad to be back here with you. In today's episode, I sit down and have conversation with Danielle Joseph. Who is an incredible human and the founder of Willowspace among other things. And we have a really interesting conversation about client experience. Creating client experiences that are sustainable and simple in generous and kind. But what we really get into is how to create client experiences that honor the humanity both of the service provider and the person receiving the service.
And I cannot wait for you to listen to it. And here any takeaways that you might have so let's get into it to the
Ashley: I love that I've been able to witness some of your journey over the last few years, and I think that that brings a cool richness to the conversation that you know, didn't just meet, there's some history
goes back.
I would love for you to just share a little bit about you are if people haven't met you yet.
Danielle: So I am Danielle Joseph, and I first am the founder and creative director at Function Creative Co, which is a brand strategy and design studio. We do a lot of projects. branding for clients all over the world. And then we go on to support them with any of their online or offline experiences through their platform.
We do a lot of software design for UX or UI. We do a lot of websites and just supporting our clients through any marketing and packaging needs and things like that after they've solidified their branding. That's primarily where I've grown and been in the business world.
And then in 2020, after some kind of personal darker times and things coming up, decided that it would be a good idea to start a software company because why not? Who doesn't think like that? And I founded Willowspace, which is a client management platform that is primarily built with kind of design in mind and making things more simple and seamless and fluid with managing your clients. That's where I've been exercising these branding and UX like experience design tools that I've learned so much over the years at Function and I've applied them into this software world now, which is taking some of my attention and I balance my worlds between those two places.
Ashley: Yeah, beautiful Must keep you fairly busy.
Danielle: And I also do really enjoy not working. So that's a thing too. So I really also do a lot of like maker things and hands on things. And that kind of keeps me offline and off my computer, which is super, super important to me. So I love like making anything and everything.
Ashley: The importance of that offline time is so very important.
The conversation I want to direct us towards and sort of peel back some layers on is around client experience and what? Makes a client experience simple, sustainable, beautiful, incredible, both for the provider and also for the client.
And Willowspace like really comes into that beautifully. And so when you were creating Willowspace, what was your vision?
Danielle: Yeah, it's really with function over the years. So I've been working at the design studio and doing design and creative direction in the design studio since I think about 2014 now. So it's been almost 10 years and working with clients can be the biggest blessing and the biggest like hard burnout world.
And so I really found that it was both things in different times. And maybe at the same time too, like sometimes I was really burnt out working specifically with clients and just wished. To have a different business model. And then sometimes I loved working with clients and I just have, I'm grateful because I have so many amazing clients and I've been so lucky over the years to work with amazing people.
And so that part of it, I didn't want to give up either. In 2020, I think most people went through like dark times. I don't know if anyone came out of that unscathed, but just diving in a little bit, to about my story, which is, out there already, but my, I had a daughter that was born in 2019 and she passed away in January of 2020.
So she was just shy of three months old, just before COVID. It was just like, COVID was like the worst and best time for that to happen, honestly, for us because I could cocoon and I could shut down with the rest of the world when I just really was going to shut down anyways. So that like really forced me, I took a lot of time off during that period and that season.
And it forced me to be like, what is important? Because all my whole world just collapsed and shifted from out from under me. And so I was like, I don't want to do this anymore. I don't care about this. And I care about nothing about these things. And then as time started to pass, I'm thinking like, okay, I do want to get back to work.
I don't know what that looks like right now because working with clients feel extremely draining. I don't have a lot of capacity like I had before in terms of like my mental energy. And so I started to just like in these kind of dark quiet times of being off client work, so to speak, think about how I could reenter that world, but like in a way that felt sustainable and good to me and not pressure you or on a path to burnout again and again, because that's just what kept happening.
It was like a cycle ongoing cycle, but I started to just imagine this like software that one I could create to support my vision of how I want to work with clients. And then two could also help me have a side of like digital products, they could also offset some of this pressure of like client to client like direct work of one on one clients because I knew I've never let go of client work entirely.
I always want that to be a part of what I do, but I could be a little bit more specific and intentional about like how I work with people through using the software. And then who I work with because I'd have a little bit more freedom. So that's like how it all came to be. Very twisty. Interesting
Ashley: I think that, like for all of us listening to your story, we can relate with that sense of some of the beauty that can get created in some of the darkest of times. I know that, like, there has been a lot for you around keeping the client experience simple but effective and beautiful. What do you think makes a good client experience?
Danielle: So when I was starting to think about transitioning back into working with clients again and like getting back into the nitty gritty of working at function I was setting up my CRM. Like I was using one already. I was like trying to get back into it and think about my client process and how I could make it as streamlined as possible for my mental capacity at the time, but nothing was just like hitting the nail on the head for me.
Like I would go to set up something, I'd go on a trial for another platform and be like, maybe this one will be better. And nothing was like feeling this balance. So for me as a designer specifically, and I think a lot of service providers who do one on one work, we want to be as like automated and streamlined and structured as possible to keep it feeling sustainable.
Which is great in theory, but then I always am just like pausing automated emails and like customizing them and be like, don't send that out. Like I'm constantly still making it custom. I'm constantly still customizing proposals. I'm still doing a level that like, yes, I have canned responses, but I'm still customizing them before they go out because I don't feel comfortable just sending the same thing.
To every client I work with is so different. So for me, the simplicity and the beauty of like willow space and how that came to be was like, I need a platform that like, they can support the ability to have automation and structure and streamline simplicity in it. But, and I do that in a beautiful way.
Cause one, I'm a designer and I care about that stuff, but I also want to feel really good sending my clients things that look good and professional. And I wanted to balance that with the ability of also customizing and being like, I don't need this to feel so structured and cumbersome to set up and just go in and keep pausing things that are automated.
I wanted it to be a strike, a real strong balance between yes, it's sustainable streamlined, but it's also fluid and simple and beautiful. So it can be both.
Ashley: One thing I shared with you a lot about, uh, specifically about Willowspace is that what would happen for me a lot with client experience softwares is that there's too much happening. I'm literally just going in and using the contract function because I'm so by figuring out the rest.
One of the things that I really loved about Willow space was that there felt like a simplicity that was not overwhelming for my brain.
Danielle: This is like the biggest, best comment and validation for me just as I'm building Willowspace because that's what I wanted it to be and like, I've heard from a lot of people, who are really burnt out or have a lot on their plate or have ADHD or are neurodivergent.
They like, they don't, it's too overwhelming. It's too overstimulating. I found that too, for all of these softwares and the funniest part about it. Now being so much in the software world and doing software design and strategy for other companies and willow space now is people who use software often think that they want one software to rule them all they want it to do everything but that's when we hate software that's when we hate using software like we don't want a tool that does everything and is so tedious to set up and has all these features that can do so many different things and settings that you can do it this way or that like it's That's so overwhelming that I need to be able to just pop into my CRM, do what I need to do to get my client on board and then jump right out.
And I want something that can be set up really quickly. So I think. That's the best feedback I get from people is just the simplicity of it is what makes it so much stronger against some other ones. And we're constantly getting feedback requests. We're constantly getting can we add this? Can you add this?
And we're always just being really intentional and really trying to get to the root of what purpose it will serve and how we can do it in the simplest way so that it doesn't become this overwhelming tool.
Ashley: I feel like that's such a fascinating thing to think about because when I think about the softwares that I use the most that I use every day. Those softwares are things that I go to for one thing.
Danielle: That's like what makes a good software and that's the problem and the crm is tricky because It does have to have multiple features, but honestly when I was first starting To build Willowspace, what I really wanted support on was proposals, and I almost just built like a proposal builder.
And that would have just been one software that served a very specific purpose. A CRM needs a little bit more to it, but at the same time, exactly what you said. All the software that I use really consistently and that I love using and I enjoy the experience of are a specific feature. It's like things that I can go to do one thing, and they just do that one thing really well.
Ashley: So I think that's of reflection for people listening of like, are you like Danielle and I, in terms of like softwares work really well for you. When they are simple, and you go there for one reason, and you get overwhelmed by softwares that have too much going on, and then that causes you to actually use them less, which then is like, they become like, unhelpful, or you're just wasting money on them, which is something that can really obviously happen.
And I think that that could be language for like, oh, that's why it feels overwhelming.
Danielle: Yeah, we don't think about software design much as people who use it. And I never did either. So I'm guilty of it too. But there's a, there's so much to think of how you use something. And that's the immediate shiny thing is to say, I wanted to do all these things. And can you integrate with this and put this feature in it?
That's all great to think about in theory. But if that actually came to fruition, the amount of overwhelm and how much we would use those, all those things is, it's just, it is an interesting point of reflection when you are using a software now to think about. Really the intention behind it. And is it overwhelming? Is it enjoyable to use?
Ashley: And then I think the, it opens up another question of like thinking of your own business model. And when it is simple and clear what people come to you for, that is profitable.
Danielle: Trying to do everything. Especially as a service provider, if we're talking about like client experience too specifically, like if you are a service provider and you're trying to do some of everything that just gets so muddled, like it gets so hard to manage. Your clients, your services, your projects, when you're trying to do a little bit of everything.
Ashley: It actually makes me think of, I feel like this is such a cliche example, but it makes me think of about that McDonald's, can't you just stick to your thing? Like, I feel like you're always adding in more layers.And I remember being an employee there and getting so frustrated, Just stop trying to add these other menu items. I'm here for the Big Mac. Stop.
I think that's what that's an interesting example of like your seat you watch McDonald’s sort of like They have this thing that people go there for, and sometimes they layer in things and they work, like their coffee, for example. But you see a lot of them layering things in and then pulling them back.
Danielle: That's an interesting thing too, because in the world of software, it's, it's been a mindset shift because I've been such a one on one service provider for so long, like me to client service provider. That's like a very different relationship than one to many, which is software.
And When you give someone something to the masses and then you take it away, there are a lot of angry people.
Yeah. that's also true.
Ashley: I'm wondering if you could paint a picture for us about what you think makes an incredible client experience even outside of software.
Danielle: Yeah. Even outside of that too, just, that's something that I've been so hyper focused on at Function over the 10 years and why, like, that's what I attribute the success of Function to is just our client experience. We've been very low On the marketing activity, we don't do a ton of like marketing or trying to keep like, we don't do a lot of that it's actually just really been client experience that I focused on putting energy into so that the clients that we do work with, it's just been a ball kind of rolling with them referring us.
And that's why I think client experience is so critical is just giving a really good foothold. Experience the people who are already working with you so that they then feel great about sharing that experience with other people, whether that's product service for like any service or industry. I really tell any client that now word of mouth and providing a really excellent experience for your customers or clients is still the most powerful thing you can world of kind of marketing, you know, with all these other channels we have now.
When it comes to a really streamlined, solid experience, what I've focused on is again, balancing that structure and then reading the client and knowing when to pull back and be more human in the, in the experience as well. So it just, again, this changes with clients. Every client is different. Like still to this day, I find every client that we work with is different in how they would expect to, to work with you. And it's great and it's fine and it's dandy to try and put these structures in place and if that works for you and your clients, that's amazing. not worked for me over the years of like trying to put people in a box. I find client to client, like some clients are gonna work with you on your client portal or your project management tool.
And some people are just not gonna adapt that and they're gonna email you even though you've asked them not to email you. And some clients really want to be involved and talk to you a lot. Some clients you're not going to hear from a couple weeks and like you're going to try and get in touch with them.
Like it just totally depends. So as much as we want to try and put these processes in place that really streamline and structure things like here's where you're going to respond with feedback and here's where we're going to communicate. I think it's more about asking your client about what they, how they work best.
And these are things that we do have function to help move the client experience and the process along smoothly. So thinking from like start to finish of a, of a project or whatever your service you're offering to a client from onboarding in your Initial kind of contact communication interaction through to like the last thing you send off to them for a project or the last kind of Part to a communication anything like that should be really done through the lens of is this helping to like optimize my client experience?
Is this helping to present my business in a positive way? And is this helping the client to their goals and help them achieve their goals? So that's what we try and do a function. It's like onboarding. One of the best things we started doing in our onboarding intake form for our clients was like, ask them how they would prefer to communicate, ask them.
What their availability looks like ask them if they're going to be taking any time off like start to really get to know your client and how they work and then strike a balance between how you work So it's not just about catering to that, know, if there's things you need to take care of in yourself Absolutely, you should be doing that and establishing those boundaries from the very beginning of working with these people And so it's really about finding that balance.
And then as we onboard them and work through the project, we've got lots of little things in place through forums and feedback, like deadlines on our forums and putting reminders on auto reminders in place. And that's where your CRM can really come in and help. We've got a lot of those things to gently nudge the client through the project without being so again, like I think it can be really off putting sometimes to have a very automated structured.
Like rigid process for people and maybe that's just because of how I work. But I find it a tiny bit off putting when it's like very not personalized when I'm paying money for a service. Like it's nice to be able to feel like someone's taking the time to write you a proper email. That's not an automated one you know, the little things matter.
So we try and just really strike that balance. There are definitely automated things we send out, but then there's also really custom things we do. So it's like trying to make that experience happen from start to finish is key.
Ashley: I really love that intention around prioritizing or centering the humanity and this had this sort of struck me more recently as well around like, I love those examples you gave around, how people like to communicate, because I think I think that we're all guilty of this in some way in business. Online business of like, we think of these standardized ways of doing things. lot of times that can sort of lead into like, that's how it should be done. Even though there's not really any need for the should to be there. it's just how it's been done. For example, a client systems, we will think like. okay, so first I'm going to get on a call, and then I'm going to talk that out with them, and then I'm going to send a proposal, or that I'm going to send the, et cetera, et cetera, that sort of standardized process, but I think what that doesn't consider, which what you're bringing up is one, does that even work for you, as, uh, service provider and two, does that actually meet your client?
And like, for example, with my audience and myself, one of the things that I have found is that, uh, that there can be certain aspects of some of those processes that can be really overwhelming for me like, and like, for example, with, uh, I've had graphic designers of they send this form where it's like, and copywriters, they send these forms and it's like a million questions.
I'm like, I'm so overwhelmed by what you're saying.
Danielle: And then your overwhelm is going to lead to you like procrastinating it and probably missing a deadline or asking for an extension. And then that's exactly the kind of thing we need to try and and make easier for our clients.
Ashley: Yeah, like If your clients are sabotaging, it's because your clients feel overwhelmed by your process.
Danielle: A hundred percent. That's one thing that I I don't know if there was this like period in online business. I think what, what you said too, like we went through this thing where there were just so many people telling us how to do things all the time and like the proper process and the proper structure and so many courses to take about client process and, and this kind of stuff. And like it did pigeonhole us into this one way kind of of doing things. And then all of us got burned out and were like, why are we so burned out? Well, it's because it's not working for you too. And that's like where I think it's really important to strike. balance and know yourself, like, reflect on.
One example I have of this is Like, do not like phone calls. Like, I'm probably going to never answer a phone call unless it's your name that I have in my phone that I know who's calling and you're someone that I, like, I'm not good at phone calls. They really drain. For some reason, I'm just like that millennial vibe of my phone.
When it rings, I'm just like, ooh, and I'm googling the number of who it is. And that's just how I work. So when I give my clients an option of, hey, what is the best way to communicate with you? Phone is certainly not an option on that list. It's, Hey, is email good for you? Is, do you use Slack? Is that how you work?
And how often are you available to check your email? Because I also want to respect your boundaries. So it's like establishing those boundaries for yourself too. And knowing the best ways that you work, because if your clients are unhappy at the end of the day, we can all sit back and say, Oh, that was the client's fault.
They're just a bad client. But it's a very critical point of like reflection to say, why was that client unhappy? And what can I do better so that I don't run into that again?
Ashley: Yeah. I think it a lot of permission of like, If you don't like
colleges, Don't do 'em.
Danielle: Don't do calls. I don't do calls. Don't call my phone. I'll up a zoom in advance. Like if you give me lots of notice, but I'll set up a zoom call with you. I also use loom a lot to record stuff for clients because I've found that that works really well for me. Instead of setting up a one hour meeting with them, I can send them work.
Usually it's design work, so it's easier to present, but I'll send a video where I'm kind of talking through it for them. And it takes 10 minutes instead of an hour of meeting time, which I find meetings can sometimes with clients specifically be a little bit draining for me.
Ashley: Yeah. And I think that, I think that's probably a, a fairly
common sentiment.
Funny story about me is that when I was a teenager I was like, oh, all I wanna do all day is meetings. And I would set meetings for myself. Like I would meet with like, I don't know, community organizers, teachers, pastors, and I would have like my pink blazer. Then I bought, like basically like a Palm pilot on Ebay.
Danielle: So funny. You just like had to have meetings.
Nothing like drives me more nuts than seeing some of my friends or family who work more in like corporate jobs be like on meetings every day. And I'm like what are you, what are you getting done? I
Yeah, it's just, it's so many meetings. I try and minimize those and I try and group my meetings onto like specific days so that I have meeting free days many times in the week.
Ashley: Yeah. Which is a whole other strategy. So for anyone listening, I think I think really like thinking that through, like what are their places of permission that are needed for of how you work and what if it could look so much different?
Danielle: Even with like your timing of your projects, that's another thing I fell so much into in back in the day of just, I guess every business owner maybe goes through this. Maybe it wasn't a specific time, like a framed time, but I think when you're running an online business, you go through this initial phase of like consumption and you're just trying to learn everything that you can learn and you take everything in and you listen to everybody else and You're trying to consume so much content instead of really listening to yourself.
And now I'm in very much in the phase, especially after everything with my daughter, like I'm super in the phase of listening entirely to myself and just putting blinders on to what everyone else is kind of what's working for them.
If, if you can be a better service provider by extending a project timeline, maybe regular, let's call it designers just because I know the world, but you know, maybe a brand package for most online designers that I find is like a six week progress, like process for people and that's the project. Like if I can be a better service provider and provide a better client experience that I'm feeling more taken care of.
And moving through at a more efficient pace and I can make it do it in 12 weeks. And what's the problem with that? Like explain to, to your client and add the value where you need to to be able to do what you need to do and explain why and be providing a better client experience for it.
Ashley: yeah, yeah. A good example of that probably is more of the intensity around like websites in a week
Danielle: my gosh. It's like design day stuff too is really get into design world, but like, yeah, it's like the hustle culture is just, it's still there. I thought we were moving away from it, but like it's still very there. And I think it's just takes more effort. I think these days as a business owner too.
Yeah, listen to yourself and say, wait a second, everyone's doing it this way, but like, do I have to do it that way? If I don't feel good about doing it that way.
that's, that's the takeaway there.
Yeah, you don't. The spoiler alert is that you don't have to do it that way. You can use your client experience. You can use tools. You can use things like whatever that's going to help you like loom that I use or like a CRM that you set automation. So you don't have to think like, use the tools to your benefit to say, like putting things that can be easier on your plate on your plate and then also meeting your clients where they are.
Ashley: A good example too I thought of this for anyone is I've never encountered this But if I had encountered this and one of the designers or copywriters I have worked with over the years I think that this would have really served me is the to like go through the form and answer in audio.
Danielle: Yes. That's so, that's such a good idea. Even for Willow space, note of it because like, Yeah, people want to have different formats for these things .
That's where I can provide a better client experience is to say, okay, this client did not hit the nail on the head with writing their form into me. I didn't get what I needed out of it. So actually where I wasn't going to have a call for this and I was going to use the form to replace the call, I will, I will need a call with them and that's going serve us both better.
Ashley: I think it's so good. One of the things I started asking in my intake is, I really like to encourage people to share with me, like accommodations, things that they really need, or like tell me about how brain works, or Specifically more my work is there something that's more triggering for you?
Like, What do I need to know about who you are and how you work in order to support you best? And I think it's just that, which I see this come up over and over again, is that people are not used to advocating themselves or saying like, this is what I need to feel supported.
Danielle: I think that's a good question to get people to pause and say, wait a second, it's kind of like checks us out of our, our autopilot. This is the process kind of thing. And that's what I'm really trying to like shake up with client experience that I think has been ingrained in all of us through if we've consumed online business things in the past where it's, here's the formula, here's the process, here's your structured timeline of how you're going to do things.
Here's exactly your checklist of how you're going to onboard a And. Just like shake that up a bit and say like, Hey, what actually is going to work for me? And what's actually going to work for the client? So I think asking a question like that and getting a client to pause and say, wait a second, I'm paying for a service. Yeah. Maybe, maybe I can do it differently. Or like if you were my client and you were like, Hey, Actually, could I you audio recordings instead of, , emails or forms? I'd be like, great! Yeah. And that's the kind of stuff that we can start to say, we don't all work the same, and one process, one structure, one automated sequence of a client process is not going to work for everybody, and in fact, I've found that it rarely works for anybody.
Ashley: Yeah, I think often it's like if people don't know that they can't speak up, they probably won't, but if they, if you have a way of letting them know, like, you can ask for what you need here, there's something really beautiful.
I think that can happen in that space.
Danielle: Yes. And then imagine, imagine that client's experience with you working with you and what they're going to feel having come out of that experience with you, what they are going to share with their family and friends about how accommodating you were and how great it was to work with you and how you got them through the project or the time or the service together like smoothly instead of you know hiccups that might be like a form that was a two hour form that you're like, oh, I missed a deadline and the project was delayed and it was obviously their fault and blah blah blah and it just like leaves.
It's not a positive taste. So it's like, how can we make it easier for people? And sometimes we do need to break it down really clearly for them. Like I found that asking people in the intake or in my onboarding form, really specific things like what, you know, how, what is the best way to communicate you with, with you, but not providing like phone as an option.
Cause that's not going to work for me. It's not giving an open ended thing that they might not be super aware of yet, but it's giving them choice and it's giving them. The ability to feel like they can at feel heard and like that is validating to a lot of people.
Ashley: that's a good point too, because sometimes when you leave it open ended, people will say, I don't know.
Danielle: Yeah, they might not, and they might not know, but if I give them a, present them with an option of, hey, would you rather be present? So for design, again, I, I'm only doing this because I can relate it so specifically to that, but even maybe for like coaching and things like that, if you're presenting or copywriting, if you're presenting like a tangible like a deliverable to a client. I, there are probably many different people how they want to receive that. I will ask my clients upfront. Do you think you would prefer to have a meeting directly where I present this to you on the spot? Or would you rather me send it to you with a loom video? Recording, it walks you through it and you can take some time to digest and respond.
Some people really want to be like, on a meeting, live, giving that, taking that in, and a lot of people also don't. So, yeah, I just think like giving people options that work well with you can meet them halfway and meet them where they're at too, while not sacrificing your own
Ashley: Yeah, that's so good to think about. One of the things I wanted to talk a little bit through is because I see this come up in my work, so I imagine it comes up for others, is sometimes things just go bad. Either not even just relationally, but like, someone suddenly comes into financial crisis, or a trauma or a tragedy happens.
And what I have been learning in my experiences with people is that they're almost used to the service provider being sort of like, well, you signed a contract.
And I'm definitely more of like, what do you need? Like, what do you need?
Let's talk this through. And I have done so many different over the years, like so many different types of accommodations, uh, to sort of meet people where they are.
What is your kind of take on when this stuff like this happens with clients?
Danielle: That's such a good question. I love that question because this really goes into what I'm trying to get across to with this balance of humanity and business structure. And, I can't, like, given my circumstances and how my life has gone in the past few years, there's someone could present to me.
Like, humanity has to come first, no matter what, to me. And that's just a philosophy I will always... I mean, I definitely had it before the past few years too, but more so now because I have such a deep understanding of just life that happens and business is great to have structure around. And it's great to have.
I'm such a processes and systems like nerd. I love it. Like I love processes and systems so much. It's like my favorite thing to do, but humanity has to come before all of that. And that might mean, That, like I said, it might mean that at some point in your client process, you have to get on the phone with the client.
It might mean that you have to pause a project because something has come up for you or for them. And contract or not, that has to just be some, like, that's something that will always be above whatever business structure is in place. So there's gotta be flexibility. I think the most important thing you have to do for yourself figure out, like reflect on what you need.
And that should come first. I think, what do you need from the situation to make this feel like Okay, and how can you help support your client if they're a person in need to also feel okay? If that means that you have to pause a project, if that means you have to take on reduced payment plan, if that means that you have to bring someone else on to finish some work Um, like figure out what's going to feel best for you and at the end of the day, I know because I've had to do it my life, like, just, just traumas and like that, they come up that you say, like, I can't actually do this right now. And this is what's going on in my life. I like to be super, I'm, I'm a transparent person.
I like wear my heart on my sleeve. I know not everybody is like totally respect. Um, that style as well where privacy is very important and I'm someone who really values transparency. So I have like no problem with my clients being transparent with me and I am transparent with them. If something comes up and I'm, you know, here's what happened. I need to take the day. I need to take the week. I'm so sorry, but here's my plan for how I'm going to make this work. And like I've never had someone who's been mad about me having to do that. And I've never been limited with clients. I've had to make accommodations many times for people and do things differently.
I've had to really stand true and stand behind my boundaries and let clients go before, very rarely, but like certainly one or two that I've had to step away from the project entirely over the past 10 years, just because it was really not aligned to my values and my. core beliefs and things like that.
So have to really kind of reflect on yourself and what you need and find the balance of how you can also support your clients when they're in need, but take care of yourself too. I don't think you should sacrifice your own, your own needs for the sake either of others. So there's a balance.
Ashley: I think that's like probably the theme of most of our convo is that it is a balance that it is in some ways per situation and under some of that reflection, but I think what I want to pull to from what you just said is that it all really comes down for me. It all really goes down to communication.
Danielle: Totally. That's the key for everything. And even with your clients, like, again, I'm a bit of an over communicator. I would say on the spectrum of like communication of bad, like low communication over communicator, I'm higher on the, the over communicator, but I find that has served me better.
So like telling, being honest with your clients and communicating. checking in with them. If a project let's say is just kind of derailing a little bit and maybe you've missed your deadline because your form was too long and it's just tedious and you really wanted to just put this task in someone else's hands and you don't want to be having to answer every week.
Like if my clients, it's easy for me as a service provider to be like, well, they'll get to me when they get it to me. And I guess their project's going to get delayed because just how they're doing it. But like imagine the client experience and how this relationship could go if I was like checking in with them be like hey I noticed that you? haven't submitted your form yet.
Like is there anything I can do to help you? Should I extend it? Do you want to break this out into smaller chunks? I'm happy to do that and like knowing what you can do to support them and help them move them along instead of just Leaving it all on their plate like you can do these little things throughout the project to really check and help and Communicate.
Ashley: Yeah, Yeah, I'm definitely with you. I'm definitely an over communicator as well. What do you do when Even as over communicator you you're doing all the check ins and clients just disappear
Danielle: Oh, that's a tough one. I Think I've had one client just like actually just fully disappear. And to this day, I don't know, don't know where they went, don't know what they're doing.
They just disappeared the void but also did pay like, they for what they needed to pay for, like, sure what happened, like, I don't know. But I have had clients disappear for a short period of time in the project then me panic a little bit and be like, Okay, well, I guess they've just ghosted me and I'm left here hanging, I have no idea what to do.
The way I've handled it in the past, my immediate, again, sometimes I'm in a phase or a season of busyness and I'm just like, Oh, great, it's off my plate for a bit, I'm gonna just delay the project because it's their fault. They've, you know, they've deleted it. Most of the time though, I think the better approach is to check in with them.
So I've honestly, instead of being like the way I've done this before too, which is elicited more of a response, because again, it brings humanness back into business is instead of following up and saying, Hey, you haven't gotten this to me yet. And I'm waiting for this, for the project to progress or, Hey, uh, I noticed you haven't paid the invoice. It's past due or, Hey, I'm waiting on this thing. Um, If I really haven't heard from them when I'm supposed to hear from them, my check in turns to, Hey, are you okay? My email is literally like, are you okay? Hey, I noticed you haven't paid the invoice. I noticed you haven't gotten back to me. Is everything going there anything you need, you know, support on that we can do to pause the project? Or do you want to take a bit of extra time and offer them some solutions of just being like, You know, Hey, this is overdue. Bye.
Ashley: I freaking love that. I freaking love it.
Danielle: Yeah. So I like, I freaking love it to bring humanness back into, it's like building relationships with anybody, like your relationship building and business with clients shouldn't be that much different than building friendships and family And like, It's, it's really about that.
Ashley: Yeah, totally. I have a, which I don't know if this will be helpful for anyone, specifically maybe more in the coaching world, is that how I do it, I have definitely had clients ghost. I think the hard thing with coaching sometimes is that There's a vulnerability level to coaching. And so if someone's actually not really ready, sometimes they'll disappear. And there's not a lot that I can do beyond like checking in. you know, I can't force them. I'm not going to force them to stay or force them to commit to the work, especially if they're not communicating with me at all. so one of the things I, kind of a loose boundary I have is that I'll do multiple check ins and then if I'm still met with no response, I will send an email that says, you have to use the sessions by a certain date.
That sort of puts the power in their, their hands of like, you get to decide if you want to, or if you don't want to, I'm going to leave it there. And then that makes me feel like, that I've empowered them, but also honored my own boundaries.
Danielle: Yes, and that's what you have to do to protect yourself. You have to protect yourself too. So I think the message we don't want to put out sacrifice your, your finance, like whatever, you're supposed to sacrifice your end to, to accommodate theirs is not the message. It's just that I think there are ways we can honor their needs while also protecting ourselves.
And that's such a great way of doing it. It's just saying, hey, I hope you're okay. I just wanted to let you know, because I haven't heard from you that here's when you can use your sessions until and that's really all you can do is put the ball on their court and invite them to to like, take a step. it's not about like it's about meeting halfway.
It's like literally any other relationship. It's literally about meeting halfway with people. And so you can put the ball in their court and say, hey, here's your invitation , and , that's. Such a great way to do it without being cold. Not human or pressury.
That's huge. Yeah. Oh my God. You're like, I like have spent so much time and so many nights just with clients that it's, it's so much tied to the way you show up in all of your relationships and it will show up. Any of your patterns will show up in client work too.
Think that's like critical to understanding yourself too. And if you can understand, if you can start to do that self exploration, it becomes a little bit easier to manage, but certainly you can't escape it in client relationships either.
Ashley: And I think if you're noticing like the, these patterns or this tenderness or whatever, like use that as an invitation to heal, uh, whatever's going on in
Cause I would also say like part of, for me, I actually feel like relationships with clients have been healing
Danielle: I totally agree. I think there's like a level of logic that takes over with client relationships versus emotional things that show up in other relationships, even friendships, family and like intimate partners, like whatever that looks like. I think clients, it will show up in that way, but it's not as intense because it's the emotion of it is a less.
But I mean, certainly I have I have spent nights where I can't sleep because I'm like, that Oh my God. They hate me They, they hate who I am. They just, you know, they'd pass me on the street. They wouldn't even say hi, but I'm like eating myself alive about it. But it's just because it's showing up about that's how it's showing up for me.
And I think that that's critical. But I do, yeah, I do think it's a really place to like reflect and heal because you can do it in a less intense way or like a little bit of a clearer way than you can with other relationships that get emotionally foggy.
It's a good way to have like relationship therapy, but without having to go through the intensity of doing it with your actual relationships.
Use your clients as practice therapy. I tell my clients that all the time. I'm like, I'm part therapist mostly at this point.
Ashley: It feels like it's like a weird, like it doesn't feel totally on brand that I love Gordon Ramsay as much as I love him, but
Danielle: He's the most un gentle person that I could ever imagine being a mascot
Ashley: So if you've ever watched him specifically on like MasterChef 2, like If you watch him with kids, etc You'll OMG inside. He's like so soft.
Danielle: Okay, well that's good. I should, I should balance that view and perception of him.
Ashley :Yeah, well, I think he's also it's not as intense as he used to be but Anyway, i'm just like advocating for gordon but I mean like wait in kitchen nightmares.
Anyways, but so much of his work, when he goes in there, it's so much relational. How are people working together the relationships that they had before they started working together what they're like now, etc and so Basically, does your business feel like a nightmare like Kitchen nightmares?
Does it feel like a Hell's Kitchen nightmare?
Relationships helps like everything Because in that show you really see how the like people's capacity to have healthy relationships impacts the client experience
Daniele: Oh my gosh, yes. I think like without being like too woo about it too, one thing, once I started seriously focusing on like my relationships and experience, like that's what I put my whole entire energy into at the design studio. Like you just start attracting better clients. Like I can't even explain, like I have such amazing, great, fantastic people as my clients.
And I'm so grateful. And that doesn't mean I don't still get the odd one. That's a tougher, tricky situation or a challenge. But each time I have a challenging client, it's such an opportunity to learn what I need to work on. And like that, Can be a really big blessing in your business and you should pay attention to if that's a repetitive pattern and like what that's trying to teach you or what you need to change so that you can start to reflect and be like, Hey, when I do this, I'm actually attracting the right client.
And it doesn't even have to do with my external like branding the studio. Like that's part of it, but I'm talking about just strict relationship attracting of like, I find I get better clients when I'm focused on the energy I'm putting into my client relationships that I'm currently working with.
Which is really cool. Cool manifesting practice.
Ashley: I love that. My audience is very woos, though.
Danielle: I knew they could handle it. So I'm like, I'm going to throw it in there, but truly like it really has like, it's been such, it's taken care of me so well throughout the years of just focusing and learning from that and not immediately blaming terrible clients for outcomes and Like you have to reflect and say, what, done better?
Ashley: I mean, I think that's like, that's probably a whole other conversation about the temptation to shame people
Well, Danielle, like, I mean, we could talk about this forever, Thank
you so much for being on and getting into this with me.
Danielle: Thanks for having me. It's been, it's always lovely talking to you. So I'm excited to just put this out there and chat.
Ashley: Yeah, is there anything you want to leave people with?
Danoelle: No, but if you haven't already, you can try Willow Space with Ashley's code. Is it gentle? That's the code, but yeah, you can totally try it out. And that's, what's really supported this client experience journey for me in the past few years too. So hopefully it will just help people keep balancing their own needs with their client's needs.
Ashley: Thanks so much for joining me. Thanks so much for joining me for this episode of the gentle business sessions. I hope that it met you and that it sparked some.
Thank you so much for joining me for this episode of the dental business sessions. I hope. That I've met you as support and encouragement and something to think about. If you want to try out Willow space and see what it's all about, feel free to check out any of the links in my show notes. Or via my website and you can use the code gentle to get $20 off. Your first month.
Wherever you are and whatever you find yourself up to today. Be gentle with you.