Episode 10: A Soothing Perspective on Sales with Natalie Koussa
QUOTE OF THE EPISODE
It's not so much believing in your offer, as in believing that your offer is great. Rather, it's believing in the contribution that your offer is making to your people.
Welcome to episode ten of the podcast where I chat with Natalie Koussa about sales and visibility and it is such a soothing conversation that invites so much permission.
Natalie Koussa is a messaging coach and Podcast Guesting Strategist who helps industry changemakers create their fully expressed, fully booked business. She’s the creator of The Speakeasy - a group programme which supports entrepreneurs to grow their impact (and their income) by speaking on podcasts.
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Read the Transcript:
Ashley: Welcome to episode 10 of the Gentle Business Sessions, a podcast hosted by me, Ashley Bowden, and powered by Marvelous and Willow space. It is a joy to have you here on today's podcast. I interview an incredible soul as we dive into the. Conversation around sales and really exploring it from different perspectives. So here is my interview with Natalie Koussa.
Ashley: Natalie, thank you so much for being on the Gentle Business Sessions podcast. It's
Natalie: Thank you so much for having me, Ash. It's fab to be here.
Ashley: Yeah, I'd love for you to share a little bit about who you are. What do you want people to know about you?
Natalie: Yeah. Okay. That question feels so much bigger than What do you do? Well, let's start there because it's simple of it. So Natalie, hi. I am a messaging and visibility coach, um, and I specialize in helping people grow their business by speaking on podcasts. So the whole shebang that goes with that messaging, sales visibility, all that good stuff.
And I suppose. Hmm. What do I want people to know? The reason that I do what I do is, so before I started my business, I was director of partnerships for a non-profit and I loved that job in so many ways, and one of the things that I found both really challenging and also really helped me to create impact in that role was visibility.
So it became something that - I’m just so interested in visibility. I'm so interested in how we're socialized around visibility, around how it impacts, how we show up in our business, how generous we are in our contributions, how well we sell all of it. So yeah, that's the kind of experience and point of view that that I bring to visibility.
Ashley: Mm-Hmm. As you have been doing a lot of work around visibility, what do you feel, what has been one of the most surprising things about that work?
Natalie: I think for me, one of the most surprising things across our industry that I didn't realise until I got, and by our industry I kinda mean the online space coaches, creatives, is that often the people that find visibility and sales most challenging, it has very little to do with their level of skill. So what I mean by that is that I think it's tallied a lot more with personality type. So if you are extrovert and neurotypical, and articulate because you've been taught how to speak or how to write, you are naturally going to find visibility much easier.
And, and of course add to that, you know, white, attractive, slim, you know, any, any of those kind of, um, markers. So that's part of it. But the other part is around integrity and I think that. One of the things, so before I came into this space a few years ago, I thought that it would be a very high integrity space.
And in some ways it is. There are tons and tons of people out there with huge amounts of integrity, but there are also a small number of people. I mean, maybe they have, maybe they do feel integrity with themselves. I, I can never comment on that, but that at least the industry don't appear to have their clients and potential clients' interest at heart and their community's interest at heart.
And one of the things that I see is that really high integrity coaches and creatives can often internalize what's not great about the industry and it stops them from showing up as powerfully or as generously, or in a way that's out as outspoken, um, as they would like to be. I think that's, that's probably the thing that I've found most surprising over the last few years.
Ashley: Yeah. Yeah. I. So many people have experiences where they came into you, the online industry, I would say specifically with coaching, and they assumed trust and then had an experience where that was, it kind of bit them in the butt. Um, and, and learned that trust can't be assumed that just 'cause something is marketed well does not mean the skill or the safety is necessarily in the experience of receiving that service. Um, and so I think a lot of people will really resonate with what you just shared.
Natalie: Yeah, and I love the phrase assumed trust. It's, it's. Such a good way to put it, isn't it? And yeah, I mean, I've definitely had that experience. I know many, many of us have. Yeah. I, I just think it's such a good phrase to summarize what's a really big concept and, and experience. Yeah.
Ashley: When it, I guess it, it, it sort of lands beyond, like when it comes to you, the online space. It's wise to not assume trust, but to cultivate trust over time and relationship. And I think that, that if, if someone listening could really hold onto that, that that could really serve them well in navigating some of these waters.
Natalie: One of the first people that I heard talking about. Uh, she, she makes the definite, the distinction between assumed trust and earned trust is Katie Kurtz. She's a trauma-informed coach. She, she teaches people how to create trauma-informed practice, and she talks a lot about earned trust in, in a way that I think is really powerful. I think she's making a really strong contribution to the industry.
Ashley: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I love that. Um, okay, now that we got our intro out of the way, I really wanted to have a combo with you around sales and I specifically. Wanted this because I think I have told you this personally before in that I, I love how you show up and sell. And I love how you talk about your offers and I love some of your perspective on sales. And so, and sale, I mean obviously sales and visibility also are such, like you can't have one conversation without having another. And so I think this is gonna be good. Um, and so the first thing that I kind of wanted to.
You know, peel back some layers on is what your perspective might be on the idea around having a having a relationship with sales, what that can look like for people. Um, anything you wanna say on that?
Natalie: Yeah, no, uh, there's loads. So I think there are so many layers to having relationships in in terms of selling. The first is your relationship with yourself and your offer, whatever it is that you are selling. And this, I mean, this idea of believing in your offer gets talked about a, a lot in, in our industry, but I think it's really important, and it's not for me, it's not so much believing in your offer, like believing in the idea that your, that your offer is great. It's. Believing in the contribution that your offer is making to your people.
So both your clients, your wider community, um, people that kind of see you showing up and selling. For me, that's the most important relationship in selling. And personally, when I found something either tricky to sell or really notice that I don't wanna show up and sell it, it's often like a fear maybe it won't get the results that people are looking for or, you know, so, and I think that that's much trickier. That was an experience I had earlier in my business before I had tons of results to point to, and before I had tons of experience going through the same process with lots of different clients. So that's, that's one level of relationship. I think another really core relationship in selling, and I know of course the most obvious one is between ourselves and the potential clients or your future clients. But I think below that is your relationship with your business. So in times where. Maybe you really genuinely feel or do need those sales.
It can be really difficult to have the kind of unattached energy to whether or not that one particular person buys or not, and I think that's when it can get into really tricky. Waters and when really well-meaning people and people that would have really high integrity, you know, across their life and across their work.
It can get really tricky to sell with integrity if actually you're feeling a bit desperate and that's without any blame. Like that's, I mean, show me a business owner that has not felt like that at some point in their business. But it's why it's so important to start from a place of making sure that you have what you need as much as possible, or that you trust yourself to be able to create what you need, even if you don't have it in real terms in that moment.
That's the the other piece, so that you can sell really generously and with a real sense of, “yes, I'm showing up powerfully to selling, you know, to sharing my offer and to inviting you in and to growing my business” and I'm only ever sellin to people who this is genuinely a good fit for, who already want the solution that I'm offering, who are already leaning in and paying attention.
And then making a decision from, from a really grounded place and a place of, oh my God, this sounds amazing. Let me join, not, oh, if I don't join, maybe I'll fail. Maybe this person has the secret. You know, all of all of that kind of stuff.
Ashley: Yeah. Yeah. I think that you, in that really touch on the power of selling from a place where. The nervous system is in a space of safety and groundedness and feeling settled. And that energy you described around feeling desperate when we're in those, those moments where it's like, you know, I have all these bills to pay, I need to sell.
And that's so often that experience, it’s the hardest to sell when we are in that energy. And a really, I think, powerful shift for me was seeing that when I'm feeling like that, that like desperate energy, which is real, and I, I think there's like no shame in it. That is a cue to me to tend to my nervous system and then sell versus. Just go like straight into selling. Um, and, and sort of asking myself what would help me feel, what would help me feel safe? What would help me feel, um, cared for? Knowing that I'm in a difficult situation and I'm feeling the tension. But I also need to, need to be tended to, and I'm curious with either for yourself out of like your own personal experiences or those that you've worked with, um, what do you think really helps people soothe in those times where it's like really tight or like they're like, I need to sell and I need to sell right now.
Natalie: Yeah, I mean, I think the most powerful thing that you can do. Is create sales systems that you can rely on in your business so you're not in that position. And I hope that's, that's not, it's not, I really, I really don't mean it as dodging the question. I think particularly towards the beginning of your business, it can be the reality that, that that is the situation that you find yourself. My, my response is, wherever possible. Two things. The first is do the work to unhook your personal identity from the money that you make. And I know living in capitalism, it's so difficult. I really, really get that. Um. But at every, I mean, we're, we're kind of talking at the minute about when you don't have enough sales coming in, which is absolutely a, you know, many, many people experience that towards the beginning of their business.
But then as your business grows, similar feelings come up potentially at different income levels as well. You know, so when you start getting really good at launching and launching becomes fun, and you're used to the big cash injections coming in with launches. A launch that doesn't perform as well as you were expecting it to can have exactly the same kind of destabilizing emotional experience as back in the beginning of your business when you were just trying to, I don't know, make your first 10 K month or, or something.
Um, and something has been really helpful for me personally is. And, and looking to evidence that all around us things grow. And then they contract and they decay, and then they grow again. And that just because you can't see something at this moment doesn't mean it's not there. So just because maybe you had a launch, it didn't go the way you wanted it to go, or you know you haven't, something hasn't sold the way that you wanted it to sell.
It doesn't mean that you're not tending to this really fertile soil. So doing the work of creating a sales ecosystem, and by sales ecosystem I mean like it is very basic. Having visibility where you know how to show up, you know how to grow your audience with the right people. Your messaging is on points that the right people can find you.
Knowing how to invite them in and then your messaging and your actual, like literal sales process. Like are you doing sales calls? Is it a launch? Are you selling on Evergreen with email? Are you using Instagram that you know, however it is that you are selling up that, uh, selling, sorry, that it becomes reliable and that you can predict. Realistically, this is how many people I expect to come in, in this sales period and that you're pretty accurate, and then you can grow it as your skills develop and as your confidence develops, and as your reputation develops and all that good stuff.
Ashley: Yeah. Anywhere we can create that predictability is so, is so assuring and soothing to much of us. For you, because I know that, at least from what I've seen, that you are not on Instagram that much. Would that be right?
Natalie: That's true. Yeah. Yeah. I ghost Instagram a lot.
Ashley: I know a lot of folks feel a lot of pressure with Instagram and like that being the main way to sell 'cause they feel like that's what they've been taught. Would you have any, um, assurances for them?
Natalie: Yeah, so I, I think, I mean, I'm proof that it's totally possible to grow your business without relying on social media. I've. Well, actually, right at the very beginning of my business, I did try to sell only using social media because it's what I've been taught and it's what I was seeing people do, and just didn't sell very much at all, if I'm honest.
But you know, like I was really, really struggling to get any traction at all. And then. I took a month off Instagram and had my first five-figure sales month. Um, this, I think this is in 2021, end of 2021, and thought, oh my God, I'm onto something here and realized that. I mean it's, it's what we were talking about before.
All you need to have a really, a sales ecosystem that works is some way for people to find you, some people for some way, for people to get to know you and then some way for people to buy what you have. So for me, I. For my clients 'cause it's now what I teach. It's mainly around podcast guesting that invites people into my world.
And then I do the majority of my selling and nurturing and relationship building in email with, with my email list. And then I have a really high percentage of repeat clients. So I don't actually need that many new clients per year in order. For my business to grow and have a really sustainable, thriving business.
So there's a bit of business model there stuff as well. But I think really, if I could just boil it down to one thing, it's really doing the work on your messaging so that people know who you are, what you stand for, what you offer. You become the obvious choice for them. You become referral. You become an easy yes when you pitch podcasts or other pr and you start becoming invited to contribute your expertise because you get seen as an industry leader, and I don't mean an industry leader, that you need tons and tons of followers or famous, I don't mean any of that.
I mean. You are demonstrating visible leadership in your generosity, in your expertise, and in the, in the results that you are creating with your clients and in the ripples that you are creating in your industry.
Ashley: I’d love to like talk a little bit more about what you just said there around becoming the obvious choice. And like, even if I think about it for myself, you know, if I, if I were to bring a topic to mind, I'll immediately have folks that I think of instantly, and then there are others that would never immediately come to mind because just others would come first. And a, a lot of the, a lot of the difference has to do with what you're talking about around. Either it has to do with like specifics in positioning, a very clear or compelling message or a unique point of view.
And if either if any of those are missing, then you're probably a little bit further down the list of like who I immediately think of. Um, yeah. Any thoughts on that?
Natalie: I think you are a really good example of this Ash that you, so you've, I see you as an industry leader and I think the, one of the ways that you've created that identity is through your generous positioning. So you talk about all sorts of different things. You know, you, you talk about sales and visibility and marketing and nervous system regulation, and you know, there's this whole breadth of topics that, that you have expertise and experience in to share. So you haven't gone down the niche in and say, I dunno, I, I work with mums with kids under five to do, you know, dah, dah, dah, dah, you know, which is how there was a time in the industry that's how people, you know, used to get taught to niche.
You are like, no, I'll, I'll work with you. If you're an entrepreneur and you want to do business gently, and that's the genius thing about you. So I refer people all the time. Because if somebody comes to me, and, I mean, I'm gentle in my own way, I think, but I'm, I'm much more forceful than you are Ash, and I'm much more into, um, oh, I dunno. We, we just have a very different energy, right? So if people come to me and they really need a really softly nurturing, safe space to land in order for them to be able to take action. You are my obvious choice to say, go to Ash She'll, she'll be the one that's gonna really help you create this safe space to land.
And I think you've done it through positioning that reflects who you truly are.
That’s what makes it so powerful. It's the congruence that you create, your branding, the colours that you use, the language that you use, even on Instagram, you, you tend to do carousels because they give you more space to be nuanced and, you know, you're not one for a, hot take, drop it and run.
You know, you are, you are one for some conversation and, and so everything about how you show up to me is showing leadership from that positionality of, I run a gentle business. I'm a gentle person. I can support you to run a gentle business and to be gentle with yourself and with your business growth. I think it's beautiful.
You do such a good job.
Ashley: Thank you. Uh, thank you so much. I really appreciate that. There is a, it is, there is an interesting piece there that, because I've had a lot of, probably more of the last year, people will say to me, um, something around like my voice or presence being calming and it's like, it's like in it kind of like embodied experience of the message that I share. And I had a couple years ago had a situation where I was interviewing someone before I came across gentle business, and I kind of had spoken about it, like slow, slow business. And I had interviewed someone who was talking about this a lot, but the way that they spoke was very like rushed and intense and kind of sharp. It really, it really struck me. But at the same time there's like, there's that interesting element of like, I'm just being me. Like I'm not thinking, oh, let's be calmly.
I'm just, it's just like outta the overflow of my heart. And when I was interviewing that individual, I don't think that they were thinking. They were just being themselves within that conversation. Um, and so I think there's a lot of permission. One that, you know, we need all different types of individuals in every type of conversation. And two, that there is such like unbridled power in being who you are in whatever conversation you are wanting to lead in. Um, and the more that you can like really like, let that be and give yourself permission, I think that's like magical. Mm-hmm.
Natalie: Yeah. I love that. And I think as well, there's something about how you, like in the conversation around ethical selling that that we're having at the minute in the industry, I sometimes get this sense that people think that. Loud selling or persuasive selling is not ethical and slow selling or quieter selling is ethical.
And I don't think there's that distinction at all. I, I think they're, I mean, there are some people that I really enjoy how they sell and they are dynamic and fast and high energy and, and really, um, you know, they have one of those massive gregarious personalities, look to them and I, and I think I find you incredibly persuasive, but I also think to me, the way you're selling is really ethical because you're being generous enough to show who you are.
And so then you know, if somebody then does buy and become a client, who they get on the inside of that offer is exactly who they thought they were getting when they bought. And to me, congruence is such an important part of the ethical selling. Conversation.
Ashley: Yeah. I really love that, that that element of congruence, because I think it's also an invitation for, been thinking a little bit of lately about like, I. Sometimes I think when people go to sell, they, they almost like go into the mode. They go into a selling mode of this is how it looks to sell.
Or like, this is what I need, this is what it sounds like, or this is what I need to act like now I'm selling or whatever. Um, and I've actually been thinking about this a lot more from the perspective of autism because I've been thinking about, I've been reflecting a lot personally on how I have used masking and roles to help myself in, in spaces where I'm overwhelmed, and I have been thinking about that in terms of entrepreneur, like the entrepreneur role.
Or the coach role, it could be easy to be like, oh, I know how to sound like, I know how to sound like an entrepreneur. I know the things to say, or I know the things to do. But it's not necessarily coming from an authentic place. It's by like looking at this is how you do it, or this is how other people do it, or this will make it so I'm acceptable.
Versus like sort of sitting with my truest self and saying, what would it look like to sell? And I think that that can be so subtle. Um, you know, even like I. When you sit down to write a sales page, is it coming from this like space that is truly you or are you trying to sound like someone who writes a sales page?
Natalie: A good example because it's so true. Yeah.
Ashley: So, I mean, I'm in the, the, the trenches of that personally, like really looking at the different ideas around the ways that we mask and mirror and the true set, like the truest version of ourselves. But that truest version is what creates the congruence.
Natalie: Yeah, and I think there's, I, so I know you are talking about masking in a, in a really particular way around autism, but I think there's a, a kind of broader way that loads of us mask as well. Um, and I hope that's okay to say. I'm not meaning to take away at all from, I'm just kind of seeing it in, in layers that like if you, what you are talking about is kind of true masking and what I'm talking about is like small m masking, but
Like in the way that you've just said, like we, you know, we sit down and think, okay, what makes a sales page sound good? What do I, oh, do you know what this is what I think it comes down to in selling. What do I need to say to get people to buy?
That's what I hear, especially newer entrepreneurs say, how do I get clients?
What will, what will get them to buy? And I think what we are talking about is, I mean, I think that's the stage all of us go through, or at least most of us go through at, at the beginning. And I think it's really normal to, you know, you decide you wanna be an entrepreneur, you buy some of the shiny courses, promising secrets and easy success.
You mimic what you're taught, you realize it doesn't work. And then you have that, oh fuck moment. I need to, you know, I, I need to work out a way that this works for me. And for me, that was my moment of coming off Instagram and thinking I can't just keep copying what I'm seeing. To be clear, I wasn't like copying content.
I don't mean that. I mean, I mean copying the tactics that, that I was seeing working for other people. Um, and it's about bringing. More and more of yourself into the sales process and showing who you really are and having real courage to say the thing you really want to say in your messaging, and also letting yourself change, I think can shift. You know how I sell today isn't how I sold two years ago. And I really hope in some ways it's not how we sell in two years in the future. 'cause I want to carry on growing and I want to, it's why we're entrepreneurs and I want to keep creating and growing and developing and trying new things and showing up in a way that's more courageous and more true to both myself, but also true to. My mission and the impact that I want to create and the contribution that I want to make to the industry.
Ashley: There's so much, there's so much in there that we could, I feel like could, we could all just really reflect on for ourselves around the different I. Either the different associations we have with selling or the different like levels of permission, um, to give ourselves. Something that came up for me when you were talking is also the idea that, which this is not a new idea, but the idea that, um, we all have a way already that we naturally sell.
And one of the things that really helped me in the more of the beginning was looking for examples where I sold something that didn't involve money. And so for me, like I was really good at selling an idea. Or selling, um, like kind of more like mobilizing activisty, selling a, a cause or selling a message, you know, really mobilizing people to get involved.
That helped me by like, reflecting on that, that helped me discover my unique style of selling. That's just kind of organic to me. And so I would love to sort of leave that as a prompt for people to think of a time where you maybe even think outside your business, a time where you sold anything. Like it could be an opinion, could be an idea, could be an invitation like that you sent out to a party could be a product that you fell in love with and you were like, everyone needs to try this product. How'd you go about it? What was it, what did it feel like in your body when you did that? Uh, and see, see what kind of rich information could be found in that.
Natalie: I love that. That's such a genius prompt. I love it.
Ashley: For you, what do you think, if you like, just off the top of your head, what, what do you think would come up for you?
Natalie: So I think when I discovered I was good at selling was when. I worked as a fundraiser. So, you know, um, chuggers, I dunno if this to get called Chuggers Charity muggers. They used to get called very unkindly. Uh, do you, do you know the people that stand on the, on the pavement or sidewalk you'd, you'd say, and literally stop you and have a chat about whatever charity they're representing and then ask you to sign up?
So I must have been about 19 when I did it. Um, so it 20 years ago, right? Was. I was really, really good at it, in like, in the numbers of people that I signed up in the, um, in the amounts, the monthly amounts they gave. 'cause you know, there, there's a, a choice of how much you give each month, but most importantly in, in the retention. So the people, lots of fundraisers were really persuasive and got people to sign up, but then they'd cancel their direct debit within three months or, you know, whatever the, the cutoff was.
My, the people that I got to sign up stayed with that charity for a long, long time, you know, and became a, a really dependable and really trusted donor. There was a relationship there and the, I think the reason that I was so good at that is because. Well, I was only good at signing up to charities that I personally believed in.
So I remember once I got put, 'cause we didn't get to choose our charities. I remember once I got put in a team and I just did not like the charity at all and I couldn't sell it because I, I didn't personally believe in it. But, so my favorite charity that I used to fundraise for was called Water Aid.
And one of the things that they said at the time was. Our biggest sign of success will be that we no longer exist. And I remember that just thinking that's so powerful that they, they, their mission is so strong that they're not gonna stop until everybody has access to safe water. And then when everyone has access to safe water, there's no ego in it.
It's not like, oh yeah, great, then we'll just morph into something else and still be a charity. They'll be like, no, our work is done. So for me it was very much, and I think this is still how I sell actually, is what we were talking about at the beginning, isn't it? Like how much you believe in the difference, whatever it is that you are selling makes.
And to me, I was such a strong fundraiser for WaterAid because I did and still do 20 years on really fundamentally believe in what they stand for and truly believe that if millions and millions and millions of us worldwide gave a small amount of money every month. We could change the world through water aid.
Mm-Hmm.
So it's, it's back to that kinda activism that you were talking about as well, and that the vision for the world, and it's not about, it was never about persuading, like, what do I need to say to get them to give five, five quid a month? Like it was never about that. And it's never about that in my selling, in my business now it's. What's the contribution that that is, that this is here to make? And how much better do I think the world is going to be when everyone has access to clean running water? Or they can show up in a way, in their visibility, in their business that actually fuels their, their business and the impact they're here to make.
Ashley: Yeah. I'm curious how many people are listening and they're like, I think I should. Sign up as a donor. Let's do it.
Natalie: But yeah, that belief isn't it? And that way of, um. We're only small individuals, each of us. But when we, when we club together and we, when we move, I suppose it's a social movement in, in a way, you know, when we move together in the same direction, we can achieve incredible things. And to be honest, what I love about the online space as well, like the opportunity that it's giving so many of us, especially people that didn't find it hard to, uh, didn't find it easy, sorry to be in, you know, like a nine to five job or have a boss or you know, for whatever reason.
I love the opportunity of it. I think it's incredible. So much incredible opportunity.
Ashley: So much good stuff in here. I, I feel like we could probably have a lot more conversation about all, many different things about selling and, and maybe we will again in the future, but I would love for you to leave anyone listening with some type of prompt or question that they can take from this episode to like engage more in this for themselves.
Natalie: Ooh, I love this. Okay. What is something you would like to say or contribute now in this moment that you're holding yourself back from? And then what would need to be in place for you to share it? That's it.
Ashley: We pause. Yes. That's a, that's a great place to, it's a great place to start from this conversation. Natalie, thank you so much for being here and bringing your warmth and insight on this. It was really good to chat this through with you.
Natalie: Thanks so much for having me. Thanks for going so deep. It was, uh, hell of a conversation. I mean, it's always deep with you, Ash, but it's, yeah, it was, yeah, it was really fun. Thanks so much for having me.
Ashley: There are two amazing partners that have really helped. I get this. Podcast into the world. And one of those incredible partners. Is Willow space and I want to highlight something. That is available in the Willow space platform. That is so helpful. You know, Entrepreneurs, especially when we're first starting out or even like, mid-level, it can feel like we have to have so many. Platforms in order to make the business work operationally. And one of the big ways that that shows up is the feeling like we need to have. Uh, CRN where we can send contracts or. Track leads or send invoices or anything to do with project. Management client, project management, and then we have a separate. Platform that we use for scheduling and. Within Willow space. I love that those two things gets come together. That instead of having that have to be two different separate platforms. All of that can be done. And Willis space.
And not only is that awesome for our bank accounts. But that is also awesome. For creating a cohesive experience. And so if you haven't took it with a space, you definitely want to do that. Feel free to use the code. Gentle. To get $20 off and you can grab the link for that via my. Instagram bio, or you can go to the show notes for this episode.
Thank you so much for tuning into this episode of the gentle business sessions.
What a joy to have you listen in on this conversation. And I love to continue the conversation with you. So feel free to send me a DM. On Instagram with whatever stood out to you, feel free to share this episode with anyone you think might really resonate with it. And no matter where you are today and whatever, you're up to you.
Be gentle with you.